Ledgend Boats and Champion?

[mixermarkb]

Not sure if I'd have the balls to get em all in the same place at the same time, but I really am thinking about writing a book, or maybe just some web based kind of history of the north Arkansas boat biz...

[Mick A.]

If you could all of the great designers together to build 1 boat,wonder what it would look,ride & fish like?

[mixermarkb]

Terrible. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the meal. I've never driven or ridden in one, but that Allison xb21 sure seems to be dang close to the perfect performance bass boat design to me. I think the styling is ugly, and I'm a fan of metalflake, but ive idled by one sitting on a lift and the pad and chine design on that sucker is a work of art. Ya gotta give credit where it is due, and design wise, Allison invented the modern pad-v bass boat. Rob Shaw from the boards is awful proud of his, and I'll say he probably has a reason.

I will also apolgize if this next statement rubs anyone the wrong way, but I wish his champion experience was in a 202 or 203, instead of a 210. The 210 is a great, big, wide, flat fishing dock of a boat, with a pretty decent ride, showing it's champion roots, but it isn't the hard turning, hard running performance minded narrow champ of old. I'd love to let Mr Shaw drive a well setup narrow champ in some rough stuff and see if his opinion bumped up a notch or 3. Again, 210/200 owners, I'm not dissing your rigs, they have acres of storage and fishablity right up there with any, so don't lynch me for this ramble!

[JohnM]

Pretty sure Rob had a big Champ for a while. He changes boats like I change cars.

I don't know if he has ever been in a 202 or not? I'd be surprised if he has not been in a 203. IMO you would have to compare the 223 to the XB21 to make it apples to apples. You are correct the XB owners have good reason to be proud of their rides, it would amaze most of the people that have never been in one if they were blind folded and didn't know what boat they were riding in at like speeds.

The only wide body that ever did anything for ME was the 198 and that was because of the hull design being based on the 196. The rear tank rounded Champs were the turning kings, the skinny years with squared off sides were the best compromise IMO (IE 187,203,223) when they went to the wide bodies Champion just lost something I can't put my finger on. The ride was still there on most, turning was better than most, quality was OK, I really think it boiled down too trying to be all things to all people and losing focus on what they did best. A master can do a few thing really well but can never master a bunch of things.

I'd buy that book Mark!

I think it's time fer bed.

[mixermarkb]

Yeah, I think he had a 210. Not sure how many narrow champs he has been in.

I think the wide body designs were tweeked by people (stinson) who although talented designers, had their own ideas about what a boat should do and how to get there. I'm talking out of my ass here, but my theory is in genmar world, they were limited on time and $$ in the r&d department, and told by the marketing guys wider sells, look @ brands xyz and how wide they are, we gotta compete, etc etc.

Without access to the Dave Shlicks, Bill Paces, Bruce Bentons to talk about the reasons the champ hulls evolved from the 86" boats and the lessons learned along the years, they sort of ended up doing things that were just not the old school way. I really wonder what the mountian home guys would have come up with in a wide body champ. I think the 198 is pretty much that boat. I also believe that in the genmar era, champ was not allowed to be faster than the R boat. Idk, I'm rambling, but really belive the genmar move was the beginning of the end, just because the boats drifted away from the ethos that defined the brand.

And I agree, rear tank 187, 193, 203, 223 are the best compromise of champ handling and ride, and fishing stability. That's why I'll run mine untill they fall apart or I win the lotto and buy an ally!

[mixermarkb]

Next time I see Dave, I'll ask him about the 206. He told me he had to make some compromises in the 203 that he believed made it less than it could have been. The 206 was kind of a flop, performance wise, I liken it to the first 90" boats like the 180/190/204. Compared to the 86" hulls of the day, they were slow and not the performers of the brand. The 186/191/202 got better performance wise. Then they found the balance on the square chine 90" boats. Would love to see where we would be now a couple of revs in of the 196/206 platform...

[FEARTHETURTLE210]

mixermark, there is no diss on the 210. everyone has a diff need and when the need for wider boats came along Champ adjusted to meet demand. Did champ give up a little ride when they went from 89-90 to 95 im sure they did, but they also gave up ride when they went from 86 to 90in boats. I was torn between the 203 and 210. It came down to room to move around the whole boat,stability vs tippy bow,storage and nice front platform to fish from. I really dont think that i gave up much in ride comfort so to me i am happy with the boat. look at BC they just came out with a deep vee 21 ft boat jag for the guys who want to fish big waters,,trade offs in any boat you buy today..

[ChampioNman]

The wide rides were build due to customer demands, More storage less tipping at rest, less bow high stance at rest, etc. If you've never been in a narrow beam Champ, when you get a big ol biscut eater in the back of a narrow arrow and he decides he wants to do the two step and you ain't ready for it you could find yourself headed into the drink.
People wanted the boats to have a bigger front deck so they "Rangerized" the boat.

[mixermarkb]

I know the wide rides were built by demand. My only point was the latest round of wide champs, were designed by people who didn't really know the history of the champ hull, and why it worked as it did. Can someone with a 210 do me a favor and put a few pics of the pad up here? And of the turning chines?

The couple of fast looks I've had at the bottom of a 210 weren't very good, but they did strike me as pretty differnt looking than the other champs I've seen. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad boat at all, I'm just saying it isn't what the old team would have done in a wide body, current, beam forward tournement bass boat.

[FEARTHETURTLE210]

rangerized is a good word for it, but market dictated the way boats were designed, if champ stayed with only a 90 in. beam they would have lost a lot of market buyers looking for bigger wider boats to strap the 250's on. the champ buyer was the one who demanded boats that could provide more room and less tippy with stability and storage. One thing in life is that nothing remains the same, even Ranger changed the way it built its boats from early 90's to now..Its the way things go. Look at new skeeter, they resdesigned there hull just to fit the new 4 stroke..

[TOUCH OF CLASS]

rangersized thats funny,but not really,if you think about and do a search on peoples weight since 1970 we as a nation have gotten alot heavier.The average person (man) weighs 265 lbs thats around 25 to 30 percent more than 1970s.
If a guy weighing 300 plus stand on the old champ 18 ft deck look out.

So if we all would lose weight we could have the one of the finest boat hulls built again.
If you notice everything has gotten bigger to make are lives easier to keep
up with our rangersizeing.houses, trucks, atvs ,boats etc.

[pmgoffjr]

Interesting twist this is taking.

Truth is, if the only champs I'd ever been in were a 204, 180, 190, 206, I wouldn't understand all the hoopla people gave them either. All the *first* generation bigger, widers were less than what they were designed to replace.

I don't know what that means, just made me think of it is all.

[H2O_Fowl]

I'm gonna offer PE 1 dollar for the Champion name and all the molds. Not sure what I am going to do with them though.

[mixermarkb]

They always got there tho. I mean the first gen bigger/wider would be less, then a couple years and the new and improved would be new and improved. I'm just sorry the world never got to see a mountian home new and improved wide boat, closest thing is prolly the 198 as John said.