Let the Reader Decide…

[titanxt]

Mary delivered Jesus to the world, therefore she was His mother, just like any other mother who delivers a child. The fact that Jesus is God in human form, one could surmise Mary is the mother of the Living God.

JeffLA - I understand your point because a + b = c; however, within the context of an eternal living God, one without beginning or end, it is very dangerous elevate a sinful human being to a position above God. In human terms, a mother is in a superior position to their child. No human is superior to God. Motherhood denotes having some hand in the child’s creation. Again, it is elevating a human being to a position they cannot hold. The semantics only works if we take the truth of the Word of God out of the equation.

Addition thought, Revelation is full of imagery and not a single word of it relates to Mary. If Mary held the office prescribed to her by the Cathoilic Church, I would expect for her to have been accounted for within that book.

[titanxt]

In quoting me, you left off the beginning which shows that was not my thoughts but I was just acknowledging what Frank wrote.

Fishinfamily - Please… I simply addressed the meaning of Revelation 12 without ever stating those were your “thoughts.” You simply stated it was “one interpretation.” Revelation 12 was thrown out there and I jumped in on the topic. I apologize if that caused you or anyone else any trouble.

[sdbrison]

Just a few texts from the bible, I think there are probably plenty more.

Matthew 1:18 English Standard Version
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed[b] to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:43 English Standard Version
43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


John 19:25-26 English Standard Version
25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

[titanxt]

Applicable scripture for Mary being the human mother of Jesus. Not applicable to being the Mother of God with some semantics gymnastics.

[fishinFamily]

Applicable scripture for Mary being the human mother of Jesus. Not applicable to being the Mother of God with some semantics gymnastics.

No one think she was somehow there at the beginning and “gave birth” to God. No one gave birth to God. God always was, always is, and always shall be.

God is infinite, giving honor to Mary doesn’t take away even a little from His glory. In fact, her soul magnifies the Lord. She is full of His grace and all generations will call her blessed.

[fishinFamily]

Applicable scripture for Mary being the human mother of Jesus. Not applicable to being the Mother of God with some semantics gymnastics.

Titanxt, I think I understand your point. The Word incarnate was born of Mary, but He existed for eternity. She is creature, He is creator. And I agree with that.

But, I think we need to be careful when distinguishing between Jesus’ two natures - He is fully human and fully divine and those two natures are joined ineffibly in one person (in hypostatic union). I just don’t want to leave anyone confused that you are talking about Nestorianism (at least I don’t believe you are) that states that Mary only gave birth to Jesus’ human nature.

[titanxt]

Fishinfamily - That is correct, Mary gave birth to Jesus who was fully man and fully God. I agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus, but it is the direction the Catholic Church has taken this reality that is the problem. Mary has been elevated to a deity supported by overreaching semantics that “Mary is the Mother of God.” As an outsider looking into the Catholic Church, I see Mary elevated at every turn. I do not think it is a coincidence that we know very little about Mary from the Bible as we were not to turn to her with our worship. I realize this goes against what established catholics have been taught for years, but it is wrong.

[fishinFamily]

Fishinfamily - That is correct, Mary gave birth to Jesus who was fully man and fully God. I agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus, but it is the direction the Catholic Church has taken this reality that is the problem. Mary has been elevated to a deity supported by overreaching semantics that “Mary is the Mother of God.” As an outsider looking into the Catholic Church, I see Mary elevated at every turn. I do not think it is a coincidence that we know very little about Mary from the Bible as we were not to turn to her with our worship. I realize this goes against what established catholics have been taught for years, but it is wrong.

I’m glad that is clarified!

i understand your thoughts on the Catholic Church and Mary. I will tell you, I was raised Catholic and I was never taught that Mary was elevated to deity or that she deserved worship. Quite the contrary, I was taught that worship is for God alone. Saints inspire us to live holy lives and since they are alive in Christ in heaven, they can pray for us.

[sdbrison]

Applicable scripture for Mary being the human mother of Jesus. Not applicable to being the Mother of God with some semantics gymnastics.

From what you state it looks like you are saying human Jesus is not God. I don't think that is what you mean. Jesus is both fully human and divine, He is also fully a part of the trinity of God. That makes Mary the mother of God, at least in my belief.

edit to add: I should have read your later replies as I believe you have clarified your statement, thanks.

[Kskeet]

To the OP: Posting this just to stuff up a debate certainly isn't "loving they neighbor as yourself", but that's my opinion and I don't mean to judge.

Rhetorical question: have you ever attended a Catholic Mass?

I was raised Baptist and converted to Catholicism. I assure you Catholic is biblical; I love my faith and I loved my 25 years as a baptist. Remember, organized religion was created by humans...and humans are imperfect. Even the pissed off monk who started the Protestant Reformation a short 500 years ago.

I admire your dedication to your faith but how about use it to spread truth and love and not create division?

[titanxt]

Skeet - I must admit, I am taken back a bit that anyone would correlate standing on the truth of God’s Word against unbiblical practices of the Catholic Church with being divisive. Also, I firmly disagree that standing on the truth of God’s Word against idolatry, polytheism, indulgences, salvation by works, etc., and challenging others to compare the Word of God to those unbiblical practices, as not “loving my neighbor.”

As far as the truth causing division, let’s look at what Jesus said:

Luke 2:51-53 “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Jesus knew His truth would cause division - not only between those who believe in Him and those who do not, but also within His church as the church erodes and capitulates to the world. It is our duty to constantly inspect the beliefs and practices within the church against the absolute truth of God’s Word.

Jesus addressed the Pharisees drifting away from the truth in Mark chapter 2:

Mark 2:6-10 “He replied, ‘Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: ‘These People honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.’”

Was the truth Jesus spoke divisive? Most definitely! Is shining the light of truth on the unbiblical practices and traditions within the church divisive? Yes, but why? Because we tend to play the divisive card when our itching ears hear what one does not want to hear. I do find it interesting that there was very little, if any, Biblical challenges within this forum to the unbiblical practices of the Catholic Church. Ironically, it is not viewed as divisive to challenge pseudo-Christian religions like the Mormons, when they have polluted the Word of God and have practices that are also unbiblical. Would that be divisive and according to your belief, be wrong?

One last thought… a lot of unbiblical practices and beliefs have crept into the church all in the name of “love….”

[Kskeet]

titanxt: clearly you are all knowing I refuse to debate this on a bass fishing forum. I'll leave you with this. You have an interesting way of being a "fisher of men". Pun intended. Praying for you my friend.

[digthemup]

titanxt: clearly you are all knowing I refuse to debate this on a bass fishing forum. I'll leave you with this. You have an interesting way of being a "fisher of men". Pun intended. Praying for you my friend.

Kskeet,
I am sure that you are aware that BBC has many different forums, and this one is a faith forum where many different believes are discusses without any prejudice. Yes, the discussion can get very heated, but I always stress for everyone to be respectful of others opinions, since opinions in themselves cannot be wrong.
It is wonderful to be a 'fisher of man' as long as we are applying the teachings and commandments of Christ given onto Him by the Father, which we can find them in the OT and NT.
Grace and Peace
Frank

[Kskeet]

Kskeet,
I am sure that you are aware that BBC has many different forums, and this one is a faith forum where many different believes are discusses without any prejudice. Yes, the discussion can get very heated, but I always stress for everyone to be respectful of others opinions, since opinions in themselves cannot be wrong.
It is wonderful to be a 'fisher of man' as long as we are applying the teachings and commandments of Christ given onto Him by the Father, which we can find them in the OT and NT.
Grace and Peace
Frank

If I said anything that was interpreted as offensive then I apologize. I don't see where I wasn't completely respectful, but tone is lost in typing. Others have said things here that simply aren't true and offensive to Catholics, I hope they also read your note. Again, if something I typed was misinterpreted then I apologize for that, but I don't see it. Respectfully, I'll not respond to this discussion any longer.

Keep the faith

[titanxt]

Skeet - I hope you reconsider not responding to this thread because I truly want to know where I lack biblical understand in anything I might have said about the Catholic Church. I am not seeking to be right; I want to know the truth.