Christian Unity?

[digthemup]

I agree that having a church similar to when Peter and Paul were alive would be wonderful. (Maybe without all the martyrs and persecution though? I may - through the grace of God - be strong enough to suffer and die for my faith, but I pray none of us has to!)

But in the time of Peter and Paul everyone in the church didn’t always see eye to eye…. In Acts 15 we see how dispute resolution was discussed and deferred to the hierarchy of the apostles and presbyters. The council of Jerusalem was a pre-ecumenical council and was the basis for future councils.

I agree that in Acts and some of the epistles that Paul wrote we find that there was some conflict, which most of it may have been started by the Jews trying to retain power and their ways of the imposed "laws".
I am sure you may recall them trying to impose circumcision on to the gentiles that converted, yet later was found to be unnecessary as Paul expanded all the way to Rome. I believe that when we use the Scriptures to resolve our differences in perception and opinions we allow God's word to shine the light on the truth giving the Holy Spirit the ability to guide us as Christ instructs by His teachings and commandments.

Remember, God's truth is our shield and buckler as He teaches us in Psalm 91, and I believe that we need to look at His word to grant us peace, even when we may perceive that others may be wrong.
May the mighty word of God and Christ always guide you and yours,
Frank

[fishinFamily]

I agree that in Acts and some of the epistles that Paul wrote we find that there was some conflict, which most of it may have been started by the Jews trying to retain power and their ways of the imposed "laws".
I am sure you may recall them trying to impose circumcision on to the gentiles that converted, yet later was found to be unnecessary as Paul expanded all the way to Rome. I believe that when we use the Scriptures to resolve our differences in perception and opinions we allow God's word to shine the light on the truth giving the Holy Spirit the ability to guide us as Christ instructs by His teachings and commandments.

Remember, God's truth is our shield and buckler as He teaches us in Psalm 91, and I believe that we need to look at His word to grant us peace, even when we may perceive that others may be wrong.
May the mighty word of God and Christ always guide you and yours,
Frank

Frank first let me thank you because I love this discussion. I truly feel like i am learning from this forum, and even though you and i do have some differences in approach to our faith I can tell that you love Jesus and the scriptures and I hope you see I do too.

I do realize that the dispute in Acts 15 was about circumcising. But what was the scriptural basis for that decision? At the time of Acts, the New Testament wasn’t written. If they likely would have relied on only scripture, the OT, they would have come to the conclusion that circumcising was necessary for salvation.

I love and cherish the word of God. I read the Bible regularly. But I also read Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine, and other Church fathers. I read some of the Apologists, and I read the Catechism. In addition I cherish the Eucharist because as Jesus himself said (John 6:53) “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

[digthemup]

Frank first let me thank you because I love this discussion. I truly feel like i am learning from this forum, and even though you and i do have some differences in approach to our faith I can tell that you love Jesus and the scriptures and I hope you see I do too.

I do realize that the dispute in Acts 15 was about circumcising. But what was the scriptural basis for that decision? At the time of Acts, the New Testament wasn’t written. If they likely would have relied on only scripture, the OT, they would have come to the conclusion that circumcising was necessary for salvation.

I love and cherish the word of God. I read the Bible regularly. But I also read Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine, and other Church fathers. I read some of the Apologists, and I read the Catechism. In addition I cherish the Eucharist because as Jesus himself said (John 6:53) “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

FishinFamily,
Because the Jews wanted to continue and retain the Laws, their argument was that circumcision was necessary due to Abraham's covenant, however, Christ had come and risen giving us a new covenant by His blood at the cross. Jesus made it clear that He is the only way to salvation, John 14:6, and the circumcision we were to receive would be spiritual by being spiritually born again as He explains to Nicodemus.

In John 6:53, in my opinion, I believe that Jesus was describing His Passion at the cross, since He knew that eating of human flesh and drinking of any blood would be against God's will and the commandments about such things given in Leviticus, especially the blood, which God considered it the life of any living being. In the last supper, Jesus makes it clear that he wishes us to repeat that which He shared with the apostles in the upper room in remembrance of Him giving His body and blood for our redemption and salvation giving us eternal life.
I attended catholic schooling up to HS, and I am aware of the traditional believe they hold on to about the eucharist, however, when we examine God's word and His commandments given about eating of human flesh and any type of blood, I conclude that Jesus would have been contrary to the Father's words had He intended to be literal and not a representation of His Passion and His teachings, hence, I would suggest that you read the entire chapter of John 6 for further clarification.

[fishinFamily]

FishinFamily,
Because the Jews wanted to continue and retain the Laws, their argument was that circumcision was necessary due to Abraham's covenant, however, Christ had come and risen giving us a new covenant by His blood at the cross. Jesus made it clear that He is the only way to salvation, John 14:6, and the circumcision we were to receive would be spiritual by being spiritually born again as He explains to Nicodemus.

In John 6:53, in my opinion, I believe that Jesus was describing His Passion at the cross, since He knew that eating of human flesh and drinking of any blood would be against God's will and the commandments about such things given in Leviticus, especially the blood, which God considered it the life of any living being. In the last supper, Jesus makes it clear that he wishes us to repeat that which He shared with the apostles in the upper room in remembrance of Him giving His body and blood for our redemption and salvation giving us eternal life.
I attended catholic schooling up to HS, and I am aware of the traditional believe they hold on to about the eucharist, however, when we examine God's word and His commandments given about eating of human flesh and any type of blood, I conclude that Jesus would have been contrary to the Father's words had He intended to be literal and not a representation of His Passion and His teachings, hence, I would suggest that you read the entire chapter of John 6 for further clarification.

I agree with you about circumcision - and clearly they came to the correct conclusion. My point is they didn’t base that conclusion on scripture.

As for John 6. I have read it; all of it. And the rest of the book of John. And the rest of the books in the Bible.

as you stated - Jesus created a New Covenant - Levitical laws are no longer applicable. God does consider the blood to be the life of a thing. That is why he commanded his people not to consume the blood of beasts. He doesn’t want them to share in a life lesser than them. He wants all of us to share in his Divinity as “adopted” sons and daughters.

In John 6 he clearly states “my flesh is true food and my blood true drink”. Nothing symbolic about that!! In John 6:66 he loses followers because this teaching was too hard - he didn’t stop them and explain the symbolic meaning of his words.

Furthermore I think it is clear that Paul believes that communion is more than a mere symbol - 1 Corinthians 11:23-32.

[digthemup]

I agree with you about circumcision - and clearly they came to the correct conclusion. My point is they didn’t base that conclusion on scripture.

As for John 6. I have read it; all of it. And the rest of the book of John. And the rest of the books in the Bible.

as you stated - Jesus created a New Covenant - Levitical laws are no longer applicable. God does consider the blood to be the life of a thing. That is why he commanded his people not to consume the blood of beasts. He doesn’t want them to share in a life lesser than them. He wants all of us to share in his Divinity as “adopted” sons and daughters.

In John 6 he clearly states “my flesh is true food and my blood true drink”. Nothing symbolic about that!! In John 6:66 he loses followers because this teaching was too hard - he didn’t stop them and explain the symbolic meaning of his words.

Furthermore I think it is clear that Paul believes that communion is more than a mere symbol - 1 Corinthians 11:23-32.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Was Jesus's body broken for us at the cross? absolutely, for flesh was torn and nails were driven into Him, and we shall remember this when we celebrate communion.
Was Christ's blood shed on the cross as an atonement of His new testament? so that our sins will be forever forgiven as far as East is from the West, absolutely, and we shall remember this when we partake of the cup at communion.
BTW, I was in no way implying that you had not previously read John 6, but to revisit it within the context of our discussion, which sometimes may give us a different view of our prospective.
The people are seeking free food, not spiritual truth. As soon as Jesus begins to explain that His miracles are only meant to teach, they lose interest. Christ will describe how material things fade away, but His real purpose is to give people eternal life.
“I am the bread of life,” Jesus tells the people. “Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.” He is offering the people himself. He is the imperishable bread that nourishes and sustains imperishable life. Jesus makes us the same offer in His New Covenant of bread and wine.

Thank you so very much for stoking the fire which burns withing me for my Lord Christ.
Frank

[fishinFamily]

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Was Jesus's body broken for us at the cross? absolutely, for flesh was torn and nails were driven into Him, and we shall remember this when we celebrate communion.
Was Christ's blood shed on the cross as an atonement of His new testament? so that our sins will be forever forgiven as far as East is from the West, absolutely, and we shall remember this when we partake of the cup at communion.
BTW, I was in no way implying that you had not previously read John 6, but to revisit it within the context of our discussion, which sometimes may give us a different view of our prospective.
The people are seeking free food, not spiritual truth. As soon as Jesus begins to explain that His miracles are only meant to teach, they lose interest. Christ will describe how material things fade away, but His real purpose is to give people eternal life.
“I am the bread of life,” Jesus tells the people. “Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.” He is offering the people himself. He is the imperishable bread that nourishes and sustains imperishable life. Jesus makes us the same offer in His New Covenant of bread and wine.

Thank you so very much for stoking the fire which burns withing me for my Lord Christ.
Frank

Frank,

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the Word.

I have a question - do you believe at the last supper Jesus offered the apostles his body and blood? Or was he just referring forward to his sacrifice on the cross?

I believe Jesus is the lamb of the new Passover - the unblemished offering. In Exodus 12 the Israelites were instructed not just to sacrifice the lamb but to also consume its flesh.

I cherish that we can re-present that perfect sacrifice of Jesus, once for all.

I would also invite anyone to go to a Catholic Church and spend some time in the Adoration Chapel asking Jesus if He is truly present in the Eucharist.

In the end I believe we all love Christ and cherish His love in our life. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you!

Bill