Drifter106,Originally Posted by drifter106
Thank you for posting that because, after a quick Google, I have learned what Catholics believe by “immaculate.” I will be editing my post above to be clear that I do not believe in Mary being without original sin or blemish….
And that’s the issue. Most have no idea what Catholics believe. If anyone wants to know about the Immaculate Conception or any other part of the Catholic faith I would be happy to try to explain it - I am definitely not an authority, but rather am one who strives to know more and grow in relationship with Christ!
Immaculate conception is Biblical.
Please someone show me where this is in Scripture because I would like to read it myself. I believe that there may be a confusion between "virgin" and "immaculate", which are in no way interchangeable.
Virgin - someone who has never had sex: pure and not spoiled untouched.
Immaculate conception - is the belief that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.
I hope that this gives everyone the clarity needed between these two terms, and we can clearly identify what is biblical.
BTW, being immaculate was NOT a precursor requirement for Mary to be our Lord's mother.
Once Adam had sinned we all lost the original righteousness of creation in God's image. We are all created in the likeness of Adam in a fallen sinful state as the scripture states below. This includes Mary the mother of Jesus.
Genesis 5:1-3
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
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There is no issue. We have all partaken in several lengthy threads outlining Catholic beliefs by citing the Catholic websites and the Catholic Catechism. My error in ignorantly assuming your definition of "immaculate conception" and my definition was the same in now way justifies "most" not knowing what Catholics believe. It certainly does not apply to those who have participated on this forum. For clarification, we use the term immaculate conception, or immaculately conceived as an illustration of how Mary's supernatural, virgin conception came to be.
Digthemup's response above is spot on. And as a spoiler, there is not a single line in scripture that even hints about Mary being without original sin.
Consider this: the ark of the covenant was to be made with gold without blemish and no one could touch it with their sinful hands - look what happened to Uzzah for touching it.
The Ark carried the 10 Commandments the rules for the Old Covenant - the words carved by the hand of God. It carried Aaron’s staff - the staff of the high priest. And it carried manna, the bread from heaven.
Mary’s womb carried The Word made flesh- come to establish a new and everlasting covenant. The Great High Priest. The Bread of Life.
Once Adam had sinned we all lost the original righteousness of creation in God's image. We are all created in the likeness of Adam in a fallen sinful state as the scripture states below. This includes Mary the mother of Jesus.
Genesis 5:1-3
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
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I agree. But all things are possible with God. If it was His will he could have spared Mary original sin through His saving grace because she was to be the ark of the New Covenant - the Theotokos.
Some Protestants choice not to understand the need for Mary to be Immaculate. God wanted it that way...whoever the mother of Jesus was (whether it be Teresa, Cindy, Susan, etc.) the mother who carried the embryo, fetus, baby Jesus HAD to have no blemish. Free from sin....
I have said in previous posts, that many miss the boat because all they rely on is the Bible. That in my mind is counter intuitive.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
1. I didn't know the immaculate conception proposition was more than the virgin birth. She was a sinner with original sin like us all. Romans 3:23 " for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
2. We do not need a pope. Hebrews 4:14Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yetwithout sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
3. Not arguing sola scriptura. I am saying that anything written or taught must not contradict the Bible.
Last edited by mram10us; 10-04-2023 at 04:48 PM. Reason: Immaculate conception edit
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We are not born guilty of sin until we commit sin ourselves. Sinful nature does not equal committing sin. Does a 6 month old stand guilty before God before ever knowing sin? Mary does not have to be sinless for Jesus to be. That is why he Old Testament clearly states in Ezekiel 18:20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
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I ignorantly confused virgin birth and immaculate conception. I take back my statement about it being Biblical and ask forgiveness :) All have sinned including Mary and the Bible does not support her being sinless, nor is it logically needed.
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We are not guilty of personal sin when we are born - is that what you mean? I am in no way saying Mary had to be perfect in order for Jesus to be. I’m asking others to consider the care that was taken to make sure the Ark of the Covenant was pure and spotless given what it carried….. and to then consider what was carried in Mary’s womb….
The ark was this way, therefore Mary's womb had to be.... connecting dots that are unconnectable and are no where to be found in scripture - only in the mind of fallible man. I wonder if Joseph died when he touched Mary? I hope other readers choose for themselves the absolute TRUTH of the Bible over the utter ridiculousness that is coming from the catholic church on these subjects. Jesus was spotless - the perfect lamb. Mary had no stake in that. Mary was so blessed to be the surrogate mother of Jesus, but she, in no way at all, was anything more than a sinful creature like me who needed a savior. Mary was also not a perpetual virgin as the catechism would have you believe. The catechism goes as far as saying Mary had no other children other than Jesus and was therefore a virgin until her false ascension. I realize chipping away at the crumbling foundation of what was once a pillar of Christiandom is hard to accept, but we have beat the proverbial dead horse with truth after truth from the Bible and it has been met with folklore from the catechism and errant analogy. One cannot call ideology, theology.
Last edited by titanxt; 10-04-2023 at 06:45 PM.
I’ll try this one more time being as clear as I can. If it makes a difference to anyone, then that fruit is grown through God’s Grace. At any rate, I will not respond further beyond this as I believe we have reached a point where everyone has said their piece and we risk animosity if we continue on this road.
Jesus taught the Apostles, including John. John taught Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp. Polycarp taught Irenaeus. Irenaeus taught Hippolytus….. and so on. All of these men passed down the Word of God through oral and written Tradition. Yes, some of that Tradition was the texts that would later become the New Testament.
We know through various writings that these earliest Church fathers believed in the Immaculate Conception. Irenaeus taught that Isaiah 66:7 is referring to Mary not having labor pain which is the result of the original sin. Hippolytus confirmed this belief when he wrote that the prophets “preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, His advent by the spotless and God-bearing Mary.”
I know that some in the world will try to turn this in to worship of Mary, but that is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Scripture is clear that worship belongs to God alone. Catholics pray to Saints only to ask for their prayers for us. (Listen to any litany of saints - the response is always “pray for us”). Catholics study the lives of saints as inspiration. Since they have already achieved what we strive for we can be inspired to keep striving for the goal of eternal life with Christ. Catholics don’t worship statues or icons- we use them to recall events or people; we use them to teach; we use them to grow in faith and become closer to the one true God.
For the sake of brevity I will stop. If anyone does not believe what I say or wants to discuss more please feel free to message me.
May the peace of Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.
Well said....and that is how the Catholic Church can trace its beginnings back to the apostle's and to Christ himself.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
If you want to talk about logic...the Bible does not support Mary as being a sinner. Since you call Mary a sinner....name one sin that she committed. Your reaching for straws and coming up empty.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
Drifter106 - Does the Bible list John the Baptist’s sins? James’ sins? The Bible has the answer - the Bible - “For ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) So the Word of God says “ALL have sinned”, yet somehow the leap is made to exclude Mary from God’s Word. All have sinned. All. Therefore, the Bible does say Mary was a sinner. To say otherwise is to dangerously elevate Mary with an attribute that solely belongs to Jesus.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.”
1 John 1:8-10 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not within us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
As stated before, I will concede the succession argument as succession does not mean without amendment. It was pointed out above how the current Pope has stood in disagreement with previous Popes. An honest look at the changes in practice within the Catholic Church is evident that accuracy and authority are not synonymous.
Throughout this thread, proper context has been very important in understanding the cherry-picked verses, and portions of verses, that have been cited in an attempt to give claims Biblical authority. Isaiah 66:7 is another example of a misunderstood verse due to not paying attention to the context. Isaiah 66:7 is not referring to Mary. Please read on through verse 8, “Who has heard of such as this? Who has seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be delivered in an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children.” Zion is frequent reference to God’s church/people throughout scripture.
This has been the crux of all of this debate - the misinterpretation of the Word of God by a legalistic, religious structure that has introduced many unbiblical and heretical teachings that stand in stark contrast to the simple, yet perfect Word of God. No grasping of straws, no “interpretation”, no relying on fallible theories and traditions, just the simple reading of God’s Word. Protestants are often charged with “not understanding the Catholic faith.” I dare to say many Catholics do not understand the Catholic faith.
As far as the worship of Mary, the previous post containing the link to numerous images of the Pope and other Catholics bowing and kissing statues of Mary says otherwise. Also, the re-writing of the second commandment excluding the prohibition of having graven images is testament to her worship as well.
I truly hope there is no animosity between any of us, as we are simply diving into God’s Word as we have been instructed to do. We have been instructed to test every teaching, through the leading of the Holy Spirit, and weigh its truth. I hope that is what we have done.
Last edited by titanxt; 10-05-2023 at 08:28 AM.
Isaiah 66: 4-10
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that renders recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
I wanted to post this for everyone to read several passages in which we can clearly see that the Lord is talking about the nation of Israel and the tribes brought forth through Zion. I seems that, whoever attributed verse 7 to be Mary, was interjecting something that it is not there.
Luke 2: 4-7
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke, supposedly being a Dr, wouldn't he have documented such miraculous delivery, yet he simply states that she delivered her firstborn son.
Matthew 1:18-25
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
Please read what is underlined, which clarifies the relationship of Joseph and Mary with the brothers and sisters would later Jesus have.
Thought to some people this may seem as an attempt to discredit Mary or bringing her down, I can tell you it would be the wrong conclusion, since no one can take away from her the blessings bestowed upon her by God for having chosen her as the vessel to bring salvation into the world through Jesus Christ.
We are not guilty of any sin until we commit it, as shown in the verse I pasted above. In the same way, I don't see how Jesus is blemished by being born in the womb of a sinful woman. What am I missing, my friend?
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