Christian Unity?

[mram10us]

Mary, The Blessed Virgin Mary, is not dead. If you were aware of the apparitions they she has been in and recorded in history, you would know she is not dead.

She is most certainly dead. She is not part of the Godhead. She is human. She is not our Savior, Jesus is. We have to be very careful adopting beliefs like purgatory and Mary being somehow tied to our salvation when there is not Biblical support.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

[drifter106]

She is most certainly dead. She is not part of the Godhead. She is human. She is not our Savior, Jesus is. We have to be very careful adopting beliefs like purgatory and Mary being somehow tied to our salvation when there is not Biblical support.

Mary...dead
She was assumed into heaven both body and soul. If she is dead please tell us where her remains are. The remains of the apostle's can be found. They were close to Jesus personally. One would think his own mother, her remains, would also have a resting place. But that is not the case.

Mary...part of the Godhead

Who is stating that? Sure not me or other Christians on this forum.

Mary...human

Absolutely....just like the rest of us. Thing is, God bestowed special graces onto her. Why? She is the mother of Jesus and because of that special graces were warranted to her.

Mary...Our Savior

Once again you are mistaken. I and others have NEVER insinuated that Mary is or was our Savior. There is only 1 Savior....that being Jesus.

Purgatory...Our salvation

Our salvation whether being Catholic or Protestant is directly tied to Jesus. Yes, many Catholics as well as other Christians pray and contemplate to Jesus. By the same token though, many people pray to the BVM as an intercessor on our behalf. Who better to ask for help than the mother of Jesus.

[drifter106]

If the BVM is dead how do you explain away her apparitions down thru the centuries. The BVM is alive.

[fishinFamily]

She is most certainly dead. She is not part of the Godhead. She is human. She is not our Savior, Jesus is. We have to be very careful adopting beliefs like purgatory and Mary being somehow tied to our salvation when there is not Biblical support.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Are you implying that for someone to not die that they would have to be part of the Godhead, not human, and/or our Savior?

[titanxt]

“One would think” is not proof to any argument. There is no biblical proof that Mary was “assumed to heaven.” None whatsoever. So where did it come from - man. Man made that up, wrapped it in mystery and sold it to the masses. Again, it is the blasphemous deification of Mary that is wrong - absolutely biblically wrong. It stands in contrast to scripture! How can one believe something is biblically true, when it stands in contrast to the Word? My Uncle Jim’s bones can’t be found, therefore with Catholic logic, he was assumed to heaven. Jimmy Hoffa (for those old enough to understand this reference) must have been assumed to heaven. “X” happened therefore we can assume “Y” is true is anecdotal at best. All of this nonsense about Mary is man-made, “tradition” of the church’s assertions of Mary is foolishness.

To once again reference my Mormon friends, our conversations follow this same pattern. Scripture is quoted, their rebuttal begins with, “Don’t you think if….”, or “Would it not be reasonable to say….” I know you love your church, and the Catholic Church gets many things right, but the deification of Mary and the Saints, praying to Mary and the Saints, purgatory, the body and soul assumption of Mary to heaven, the infallibility of the Pope, and adding the church’s sacraments and rules as a tag-on to salvation is wrong.

[csurp]

Catholics got there firstest with the mostest

[titanxt]

Couple of things to ponder from the Catholic Catechism…

CCC 966 “… [Mary] was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.”

CCC 829 “But while in the most Blessed Virgin the the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they will turn their eyes to Mary: in her, the Church is already the “all-holy.”

Drifter106 - the catechism has elevated Mary to the level of being part of the Godhead. The catechism, the Catholic re-writing of the truth found in the Bible, says that Mary is “queen” and “in her the Church has already reached perfection.” The church will then “turn their eyes to Mary” (which means away from Jesus) because “in her, the church is already the “all-holy.” It is my earnest prayer that the Catholic Church repents, throws away the evil they have written into their catechism, and relies on Jesus Christ to show them how God’s Word is all sufficient for learning as Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection on the cross is all sufficient for salvation.

As one who has delved heavily into trying to understand cults and false teachings, one of Satan’s most powerful tools is not the overt movements seen in the satanic church, but it is in the small movements within the pseudo-Christian cults and Christian churches. We only need to miss Jesus by a small amount and shifting focus from Jesus to Mary, or whomever, is just enough to put Jesus second.

[digthemup]

Titan,
I agree with the fact that those statements a severely egregious, but can anything or any one put Jesus 'second'? apart from God the Father, who has placed Him at the right hand of Righteousness.
If you mean in an individual's life, than I agree with your statement, which that would cause a person to sin and be removed from God until they would repent of their sins.

[titanxt]

Digthemup,

It was meant as within an individual’s life. You are correct, nothing can make Jesus, who is God, second to anything.

[mram10us]

If the BVM is dead how do you explain away her apparitions down thru the centuries. The BVM is alive.

Sounds demonic to me. I don't know of any Biblical backing for the dead to show up to people, short of Jesus Himself

[mram10us]

Mary...dead
She was assumed into heaven both body and soul. If she is dead please tell us where her remains are. The remains of the apostle's can be found. They were close to Jesus personally. One would think his own mother, her remains, would also have a resting place. But that is not the case.

Mary...part of the Godhead

Who is stating that? Sure not me or other Christians on this forum.

Mary...human

Absolutely....just like the rest of us. Thing is, God bestowed special graces onto her. Why? She is the mother of Jesus and because of that special graces were warranted to her.

Mary...Our Savior

Once again you are mistaken. I and others have NEVER insinuated that Mary is or was our Savior. There is only 1 Savior....that being Jesus.

Purgatory...Our salvation

Our salvation whether being Catholic or Protestant is directly tied to Jesus. Yes, many Catholics as well as other Christians pray and contemplate to Jesus. By the same token though, many people pray to the BVM as an intercessor on our behalf. Who better to ask for help than the mother of Jesus.

I agree with much of what you say. The basics being, Mary is not called to be our intercessor. Jesus is. She is obviously dead, or the Bible would say otherwise. She has zero to do with our relationship with God.

[mram10us]

Are you implying that for someone to not die that they would have to be part of the Godhead, not human, and/or our Savior?

No sir. Enoch and Elijah aren't. My point is, Mary died like everyone else or the Bible would tell us like it did with the others. Jesus is our only Savior and sacrifice for our sins. Again, this is where Bible ends and tradition or Tradition insert theology

[mram10us]

Couple of things to ponder from the Catholic Catechism…

CCC 966 “… [Mary] was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.”

CCC 829 “But while in the most Blessed Virgin the the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they will turn their eyes to Mary: in her, the Church is already the “all-holy.”

Drifter106 - the catechism has elevated Mary to the level of being part of the Godhead. The catechism, the Catholic re-writing of the truth found in the Bible, says that Mary is “queen” and “in her the Church has already reached perfection.” The church will then “turn their eyes to Mary” (which means away from Jesus) because “in her, the church is already the “all-holy.” It is my earnest prayer that the Catholic Church repents, throws away the evil they have written into their catechism, and relies on Jesus Christ to show them how God’s Word is all sufficient for learning as Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection on the cross is all sufficient for salvation.

As one who has delved heavily into trying to understand cults and false teachings, one of Satan’s most powerful tools is not the overt movements seen in the satanic church, but it is in the small movements within the pseudo-Christian cults and Christian churches. We only need to miss Jesus by a small amount and shifting focus from Jesus to Mary, or whomever, is just enough to put Jesus second.

Well said

[fishinFamily]

No sir. Enoch and Elijah aren't. My point is, Mary died like everyone else or the Bible would tell us like it did with the others. Jesus is our only Savior and sacrifice for our sins. Again, this is where Bible ends and tradition or Tradition insert theology

Here is the issue with your argument. Sacred Tradition has been passed down since the Apostles. The very earliest church believed in things like the Immaculate Conception, papal supremacy, etc.

On the other hand sola scriptura appears for the first time in the 14th Century.

so then doesn’t the question become, do you believe Ignatious of Antioch, Polycarp, Augustine, Clement of Rome, Jerome, et al. Or do you believe Luther, Calvin, etc?

I think scripture is beautiful; the written word of God, and I would never dismiss it. And I think Sacred Tradition - which includes scripture - is beautiful - also inspired by the Holy Spirit and passed down for generations from the earliest church.

If you look only at mountains and marvel at God’s awesomeness in creation you will miss the beauty and awesomeness of the sea and the plains.

I know I will never change your mind. I know you will never change mine. I’m ok with that. I can tell that many here love the Lord, as do I. And I pray you all receive many blessings in your journey to Christ!

[titanxt]

Immaculate Conception - *Not biblical as it pertains to Mary being without sin.

Papal Supremacy - One may choose to buy into the supremacy of the Pope and the false notion of papal infallibility. If Popes are infallible and unable to error in their interpretations of scripture and traditions, then why has Pope Francis disagreed with previous Papal decision and interpretations? Should they not all come to the same unwavering truth? Though the Catholic Church does their best to excuse it away in dogma and circular explanations, the changing to the 10 Commandments is a good example. The Catholic Church removed the last portion of the second commandments about worshiping craven images. Please Google “Pope bowing to statue of Mary” take a look at the images. There is a lot of bowing, kissing and arms raised in those pictures - let the reader judge for themselves.

As far as believing in any man listed above, I do not take stock into what they might say if it directly opposes the Bible. The catechism is a product of some of those men and their beliefs and it is evil heresy. When the church and church “traditions” - in this case defined as the repeated practice of wrong doing - exalts itself above the many clear scriptures listed in this thread, that is evil and we are to identifying it as such. In reference to the many scriptures listed in the last few threads, no arguments were given disputing those scriptures that debunked the catechism nonsense.

Holy Spirit Inspired “Traditions” - Matthew 12:22-28 A house Divided…. God cannot contradict His own word.

Mountains, Seas and Plains - Blasphemous false teachings and practices of man does not equal the truth of Christ and God’s Word.

* The above was changed due to not understanding that the Catholic definition of “immaculate” pertains to Mary being without original sin.

[mram10us]

Here is the issue with your argument. Sacred Tradition has been passed down since the Apostles. The very earliest church believed in things like the Immaculate Conception, papal supremacy, etc.

On the other hand sola scriptura appears for the first time in the 14th Century.

so then doesn’t the question become, do you believe Ignatious of Antioch, Polycarp, Augustine, Clement of Rome, Jerome, et al. Or do you believe Luther, Calvin, etc?

I think scripture is beautiful; the written word of God, and I would never dismiss it. And I think Sacred Tradition - which includes scripture - is beautiful - also inspired by the Holy Spirit and passed down for generations from the earliest church.

If you look only at mountains and marvel at God’s awesomeness in creation you will miss the beauty and awesomeness of the sea and the plains.

I know I will never change your mind. I know you will never change mine. I’m ok with that. I can tell that many here love the Lord, as do I. And I pray you all receive many blessings in your journey to Christ!

To be clear, you will definitely change my mind if you show me something in scripture. I am sure I am not 100% correct in my beliefs, which is why I try to focus on just the Bible.
Immaculate conception is Biblical. Prophetic and first hand accounts are recorded in scripture. We agree :)
Papal supremacy is not Biblical. Jesus is our go-to without a need for a pope on earth standing in His place. We disagree :(
Again my friend, show me in the Bible and I will gladly change. If tradition agrees with scripture, great. If not (papal supremacy, Mary as intercessor, etc) then I will disagree.
Either way, iron sharpens iron my friend.

[fishinFamily]

To be clear, you will definitely change my mind if you show me something in scripture. I am sure I am not 100% correct in my beliefs, which is why I try to focus on just the Bible.
Immaculate conception is Biblical. Prophetic and first hand accounts are recorded in scripture. We agree :)
Papal supremacy is not Biblical. Jesus is our go-to without a need for a pope on earth standing in His place. We disagree :(
Again my friend, show me in the Bible and I will gladly change. If tradition agrees with scripture, great. If not (papal supremacy, Mary as intercessor, etc) then I will disagree.
Either way, iron sharpens iron my friend.

I’m glad we agree on the Immaculate Conception. And I agree that there is biblical basis for that belief, but does it specifically say that? Because on this board I have seen some specifically deny that.

As for papal authority - read Acts about the council of Jerusalem- there was a disagreement they brought it before Peter.

But I’m saying that sola scriptura is a tradition that started closer to today than when Jesus walked the earth. It was in the 14th century that the belief in scripture as the FULL deposit of the word of God. But the truth is, John tells us that we can’t fit all of Jesus’ work in to books. His glory is far too great to be contained entirely in one book!

[titanxt]

Fishinfamily,

In order to get to the conclusions the Catholic Church makes through tradition and the catechism, one has to make a leap of faith to connect the dots. Apostolic secession is one of those leaps; however, I will concede the issue to make the next point. In the light most favorable for apostolic secession, many popes have done a poor job in adhering to the Word of God as evidence by the many unbiblical, and downright evil practices that have been ordained through tradition and the catechism. Would Peter, Paul or John accept today’s version of the Catholic Church? Would you have seen Peter bowing, kissing and worshiping a statue of Mary?

Words are important, and “FULL deposit of the Word of God” misrepresents the biblical belief that the Word of God is “… breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) Just because the Bible says, “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” (John 21:25) does that mean God’s Word is somehow less and we do not have all that we need to live according to the will of God? Absolutely not. And even if it were true (which it is not), would we supplement the void with blasphemous nonsense that stands in direct opposition to the Word of God that we do have? There are other “religions” that supplement the Word of God with other writings penned by evil men - not sure we should be in that company.

As far as when the sola scripture movement occurred as a result of the Catholic Church moving farther and farther away from scripture, the fact that it was closer to today than Jesus’s time has no bearing. After 24,000 suggested amendments, the “definitive version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church” was approved by Pope John Paul II in 1992. https://www.usccb.org/committees/sub...bout-catechism

[digthemup]

Fishinfamily,

In order to get to the conclusions the Catholic Church makes through tradition and the catechism, one has to make a leap of faith to connect the dots. Apostolic secession is one of those leaps; however, I will concede the issue to make the next point. In the light most favorable for apostolic secession, many popes have done a poor job in adhering to the Word of God as evidence by the many unbiblical, and downright evil practices that have been ordained through tradition and the catechism. Would Peter, Paul or John accept today’s version of the Catholic Church? Would you have seen Peter bowing, kissing and worshiping a statue of Mary?

Words are important, and “FULL deposit of the Word of God” misrepresents the biblical belief that the Word of God is “… breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) Just because the Bible says, “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” (John 21:25) does that mean God’s Word is somehow less and we do not have all that we need to live according to the will of God? Absolutely not. And even if it were true (which it is not), would we supplement the void with blasphemous nonsense that stands in direct opposition to the Word of God that we do have? There are other “religions” that supplement the Word of God with other writings penned by evil men - not sure we should be in that company.

very well said in both, would any of the original apostles permit themselves to be wearing a ring for people to bow before them and kiss the ring? In my opinion, I believe it to be a form of idolatry, since even the archangels did not allow anyone to bow or worship them.
There were other books written about Jesus Christ and all His daily doings and sayings, yet they were found to be not as representative of His teachings and commandments, such as the gospel of Thomas, which is structured as mostly a compilations of His sayings with many being in line with the current gospels.
I suppose that some may feel that there is a need for more of the daily details and actions our Savior may have done, which sounds like what social media has created for worthless reasons. I strongly believe that God has provided us with a very powerful guide in the Scriptures we currently have in worshipping Him and the One He sent our Lord and Savior Christ, and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us daily as we spend time reading them.

May the love of Christ be present in your lives daily to guide y'all
Frank

[drifter106]

Bill...

I would venture to say that most on this board have no real idea what the Immaculate Conception is about. You want to explain it to them...