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  1. #1
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    Ash Wednesday

    Other than being a tradition that was started many yrs ago as an outward sign of 'penance' by the so called very religious people sent out to possibly fleece the flock, I have never found any Scriptural foundation for this tradition. I recall having read somewhere that it was the practice in Rome for penitents and grievous sinners to begin their period of public penance on the first day of Lent in preparation for their restoration to the sacrament of the eucharist, otherwise, there would be possible additional penalties who the peasants would be extorted.

    Yet, Jesus Christ teaches that, when we do wish to do voluntary penance or fasting, we should anoint ourselves as in Matthew 6:17-18 (NKJV)"But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

    Please share what your Scriptural thoughts are on this matter, and what has been passed down in your tradition based on your believes.

    In the grace peace and love of Christ,

    Frank

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    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by digthemup View Post
    Other than being a tradition that was started many yrs ago as an outward sign of 'penance' by the so called very religious people sent out to possibly fleece the flock, I have never found any Scriptural foundation for this tradition. I recall having read somewhere that it was the practice in Rome for penitents and grievous sinners to begin their period of public penance on the first day of Lent in preparation for their restoration to the sacrament of the eucharist, otherwise, there would be possible additional penalties who the peasants would be extorted.

    Yet, Jesus Christ teaches that, when we do wish to do voluntary penance or fasting, we should anoint ourselves as in Matthew 6:17-18 (NKJV)"But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

    Please share what your Scriptural thoughts are on this matter, and what has been passed down in your tradition based on your believes.

    In the grace peace and love of Christ,

    Frank
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    #3
    In Matthew Christ also states that after he is gone there will be need for fasting. Lent is a communal way to worship preparation to celebrate Easter. It is 40 days because that is biblically the number or days required for devotion and perpetration. Think Jesus's time in the desert, Noah's flood, and Elijah's travel. The Lenten season is worship and a very beautiful thing. I look forward to it every year. I give up several vices and dedicate myself to more prayer.

    Ash Wednesday doesn't contradict Mat 6: 17-18. Jesus is using hyperbole. He doesn't want us to be a hypocrite show off with markings. The ashes are to remind of our and everyone's death and the fleeting nature of worldly things, like our bass boats and fishing, lol. So if one receives ashes just to show off then, yes, that is wrong. The wearing of ashes was a common practice in the old testament. Jer 6:26. The practice of fasting before Easter goes all the way back to the apostles. In reality lent has existed in one for or another since the death of Christ. It is a wonderful tradition.

    If anyone cares to read: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...day-unbiblical
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    #4
    In Matthew Christ also states that after he is gone there will be need for fasting. I believe that you are referring to Jesus talking about why no one can think of feasting at a wedding party, yet But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them; then they will fast in those days. Perhaps Christ is referring about the spiritual fasting that it will occur in the days He is removed from them. Christ was teaching his disciples new traditions in keeping with their new Christian faith.

    40 days is biblically the number or days required for devotion and perpetration....
    I believe that you did not mean perpetration but penitence, remorse mean regret for sin or wrongdoing.

    Jesus is using hyperbole. please be very careful in making such a critical statement, since many could use it to discredit many of the teachings of Christ.

    Jeremiah 6:26 O daughter of my people,(meaning Israel) gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us. I would suggest reading the entire chapter.
    Amen

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    #5
    I shared what the church founded by St.Peter himself teaches. I also shared a link with more substance to convey what the church teaches. It is all out there for you to accept or deny. I am not going back and forth endlessly. I know this game too well. For some reason I thought you wouldn't start this. All in can say is challenge your bias against the Church. If you are so sure of your own personal interpretations then you will only be affirmed.

    I will pray that you and the rest of my brothers to leave the path created by the heretic Matin Luther. Faith alone and Bible alone are undeniable heresies that are not found in scripture. I pray you all don't fall victim to the church of ME narcissist types that protestantism is fraught with. I pray you all come home to the one holy and apostolic Church and accept the screments. Stop wandering the desert and enter the small gate.

    Good day and God bless
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    #6
    I am sorry that you feel that I ma playing some type of game, but anything that I sent you is right out of scripture not a magazine, which I do pray that you value much more than any magazine.
    Thank you for letting us know that, what the magazine is professing, it is traditions based on the teaching of the catholic church, which I grew up with most of my youth.

    BTW, if you feel that anyone on this forum plays any games with you, please contact me via PM and I will address the matter immediately, since I pray that we offer a very open forum for various types of Christian conversations.
    May you have a very blessed day, and Peter is one of my very loved apostles whom Jesus dearly loved.

    Frank

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    #7
    I will remember you in my Rosary. Faith alone and Bible Alone are heresies. Everything I shared was in scripture as well. Sacred Tradition is just as important to salvation as It came before sacred the scriptures came into existence. The fullness of faith as taught The apostles themselves included sacred tradition, the magisterium (church leaders, the apostles themselves), and the Bible. Not one stands above the other. All were Instituted by Christ himself. Hopefully you will come home.
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    #8
    John 21:25 not from a magazine.
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  9. NOT a Pro Angler sdbrison's Avatar
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.coon View Post
    I will remember you in my Rosary. Faith alone and Bible Alone are heresies. Everything I shared was in scripture as well. Sacred Tradition is just as important to salvation as It came before sacred the scriptures came into existence. The fullness of faith as taught The apostles themselves included sacred tradition, the magisterium (church leaders, the apostles themselves), and the Bible. Not one stands above the other. All were Instituted by Christ himself. Hopefully you will come home.
    As a member of a church named for that "heretic Luther", you make a very valid point. Thanks for your input. My studies lead me to believe that Luther did not have a problem with the traditions of the early church but with the requirements that were added later (ie indulgences). The reformation Luther wanted was to go back to the early church fathers of the Church. There is one true catholic church that our saviour Christ leads, it is not my church or your church, it is Christ's church. Blessings and peace to you brother.

    Edit to add answer to OP question:
    Ash Wednesday reminds us we are nothing without God, "Remember: you are dust, and to dust you shall return". The imposition of ashes is an ancient act that is a gesture of repentance and a powerful reminder about the meaning of the day. As stated above, there are many biblical instances where people covered themselves with ashes as a sign of sorrow and repentance.
    Last edited by sdbrison; 02-26-2023 at 07:12 PM.
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.coon View Post
    John 21:25 not from a magazine.
    John 21:25, KJV: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

    Would you care to explain your point based on the above?

    Sure there were many things which I am sure were not thought of great importance by those that conveyed to us the teachings of Christ, however, those that are conveyed are in perfect concurrence with that which Jesus taught of His will and that of the Father's will, from the OT.

    As a youth, I was taught by Jesuits till 12th grade, which is many yrs ago, so now you know that I have been there and done that which you claim to be the culmination of the word of God.

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    #11
    Scott,
    excellent post as always based on facts not fictions.
    Thank you for your contribution
    Frank

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.coon View Post
    I will remember you in my Rosary. Faith alone and Bible Alone are heresies. Everything I shared was in scripture as well. Sacred Tradition is just as important to salvation as It came before sacred the scriptures came into existence. The fullness of faith as taught The apostles themselves included sacred tradition, the magisterium (church leaders, the apostles themselves), and the Bible. Not one stands above the other. All were Instituted by Christ himself. Hopefully you will come home.
    mr.coon, it is always interesting to here others beliefs and perspectives. If you would answer this. What would you tell someone who asks you these questions. How do I get to Heaven when I die? What is the minimum required of me for this salvation? I have my own beliefs on these, but your post in this thread left me wondering your thoughts on these things. Thanks for your consideration.

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    #13
    GPtimes2 To answer your question. I don't focus on the potential minimum requirements. I feel I know too much and have talked too much openly to others therefore I, and you as well, will bet judged even harder than those without knowledge. The simple answer is repent, have faith, and be baptized. The simple long answer is through all of the sacraments, faith, works, avoidance of mortal sin, mass weekly and holy days of obligation (I am not perfect at this), fasting on feasts requiring fasting, supporting the Church with help or alms. I am not looking to debate justification, sanctification, or any of the other hardline prot vs cath contentions that apologists battle over. To me it is a fruitless argument because in the end if we fully do what it asked then the semantics don't matter and we will be with God for eternity.

    Not until my adulthood did I stop questioning my Catholic faith. I tried other non denom and prot churches. None of it ever fulfilled me. I was even teetering on atheism at one point. I never had the feeling like I went to mass after any of their services. It just felt empty and incomplete. Today, I am ecstatic about the Catholic Faith. It is an adult religion. It involves worship, sacrifice, and suffering. Sounds hard but has become so rewarding. I look forward to mass, the eucharist, and confession. When I was most lost, empty, and depressed over the darkness of my 20's Confession saved me. I didn't know what else to do. I couldn't handle weight on my own anymore so I went. It had been at least 15 years since I last went. What happened in there an undeniable spiritual experience. I balled my eyes out received cleansing, received council, and assurance that is still lasting. Until that point I was a hard core "you don't need to confess to a priest for forgiveness". Buddy, I tell you we do. I tried otherwise for years and never received peace in my heart. I cherish that sacrament along with the eucharist most of all. I encourage anyone who is not Catholic and has something they are struggling to forgive themselves for, is worried that they are not worthy of forgiveness, or simply has not received piece from repenting directly themselves to God to just go. Sit in there and tell the man what is going on and you will be cleansed. One doesn't know the Catholic Faith until they let go and participate fully. The fruits are endless.

    Why did you leave? I suggest reading "Rome Sweet Home" by Scott Hahn. It may answer some of your objections.
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    #14
    Mr Coon

    "I balled my eyes out received cleansing, received council, and assurance that is still lasting."

    Do you believe that when one earnestly with a contrite heart confesses to God our Father with the same sentiment as above is not forgiven unless the is a man telling him that he has been forgive?
    You received counselling, which perhaps is what you needed most in that point of your life, though I believe that in prayer, the Holy Spirit would have given you guidance in finding that counseling, whether through other brethren or professional.
    Some people need to 'hear it in words of others' to feel that they are forgiven, but as you said, one that has grown and is well rooted in Christ will feel their forgiveness in their soul and spirit.

    "Sit in there and tell the man what is going on and you will be cleansed."
    As you wrote this words, did it hit you what I have made in bold?? You confessed to a man, and it made you feel forgiven because of his 'words' and the acts of contrition he told you to perform; yet, when you earnestly from your heart, you confessed to Jesus, God in human form, Christ our Savior, who by His blood at the cross my sins and your sins have forever been forgiven?
    Does a man truly have the power to forgive sins? Jesus was clear that only GOD can forgive sins, hence, Christ is the only one that can forgive sins.
    Matthew 9: 6- " But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"

    "the simple long answer is through all of the sacraments, faith, works, avoidance of mortal sin, mass weekly and holy days of obligation (I am not perfect at this), fasting on feasts requiring fasting, supporting the Church with help or alms."


    Unless you have accepted Jesus Christ, who was sent by the Father as our only Savior, and the sacrifice by Christ at the cross, none of the above, which is part of the old law, will ever give you eternal life, which Paul made it clear in many of the epistles, but especially in Romans.
    God is very clear on this matter in John 3: 16-18

    "16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    John 14:6 - 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

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    #15
    Thanks, mr.coon for sharing that. If I am reading into your post correctly, we are on the same page where it matters. Your simple answer is "Salvation", and your simple long answer is "living out that salvation"?
    I think there are variety of ways people live out their Christianity. That's why there are many successful churches. I have seen, read, or heard about many. I have been to Baptist churches that sit in their pews with their arms crossed and charismatics churches that run up and down the aisles while worshipping. I have been to Churches that won't allow musical instruments and churches that say you HAVE to be living right to get to heaven. LOL, nobody lives 100% right, not even them. They mostly all found what's right for them. I have never been to Catholic services and mostly only know what I here, read, or see in the movies (forgive me for that). So thanks again for sharing. I am glad you found peace and what is right for you. God doesn't want us to be miserable.

    I prefer the Pentecostal churches due to my experiences with the Holy Spirit. Thats the place I find more people with a similar testimony as mine. That's where I feel at home and what is right for me.

    Sometimes I have told people that once you become a Christian you are then on a path to Heaven. Sometimes we walk faster, and sometimes we walk slower. Sometimes we stop walking or take few steps back, and sometimes we fall off the path. Sometimes we are carried along the path. But, in the end, we get to the end of the path.
    We probably will never meet in person on this path, I don't get down to Louisiana. I look forward to seeing you and all the others from this forum at supper some day at the end of the path.

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    #16
    There is nothing that we can do (work wise) to save ourselves. All are sinners and deserving of Gods Wrath. However, through Gods Grace, He sent His only begotten Son to be a propitiation for us by taking on all our sins. He was crucified on the cross, buried and demonstrated His power by being raised from the dead on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God. Those that believe in Christ and is born again (through faith alone) will have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life and is the only way to God. As an unbeliever, there are no amount of works that will ever please God.

    Praise God for His Grace!
    Last edited by Chisco; 02-28-2023 at 01:32 PM.

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by digthemup View Post
    Mr Coon

    "I balled my eyes out received cleansing, received council, and assurance that is still lasting."

    Do you believe that when one earnestly with a contrite heart confesses to God our Father with the same sentiment as above is not forgiven unless the is a man telling him that he has been forgive?
    You received counselling, which perhaps is what you needed most in that point of your life, though I believe that in prayer, the Holy Spirit would have given you guidance in finding that counseling, whether through other brethren or professional.
    Some people need to 'hear it in words of others' to feel that they are forgiven, but as you said, one that has grown and is well rooted in Christ will feel their forgiveness in their soul and spirit.

    "Sit in there and tell the man what is going on and you will be cleansed."
    As you wrote this words, did it hit you what I have made in bold?? You confessed to a man, and it made you feel forgiven because of his 'words' and the acts of contrition he told you to perform; yet, when you earnestly from your heart, you confessed to Jesus, God in human form, Christ our Savior, who by His blood at the cross my sins and your sins have forever been forgiven?
    Does a man truly have the power to forgive sins? Jesus was clear that only GOD can forgive sins, hence, Christ is the only one that can forgive sins.
    Matthew 9: 6- " But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"

    "the simple long answer is through all of the sacraments, faith, works, avoidance of mortal sin, mass weekly and holy days of obligation (I am not perfect at this), fasting on feasts requiring fasting, supporting the Church with help or alms."


    Unless you have accepted Jesus Christ, who was sent by the Father as our only Savior, and the sacrifice by Christ at the cross, none of the above, which is part of the old law, will ever give you eternal life, which Paul made it clear in many of the epistles, but especially in Romans.
    God is very clear on this matter in John 3: 16-18

    "16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    John 14:6 - 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
    Preach!!!
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Chisco View Post
    There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves. All are sinners and deserving of Gods Wrath. If not for the Grace of God, we would most certainly die. God sent His only begotten son to be a propitiation for us by taking on all our sins. He was crucified on the cross, buried and demonstrated His power by being raised on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God. Those that believe in Christ and is born again (through faith alone) will have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. As an unbeliever, there are no amount of works that will ever please God.




    Praise God for His Grace!
    Amen and Amen! Gospel
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Chisco View Post
    There is nothing that we can do (work wise) to save ourselves. All are sinners and deserving of Gods Wrath. However, through Gods Grace, He sent His only begotten Son to be a propitiation for us by taking on all our sins. He was crucified on the cross, buried and demonstrated His power by being raised from the dead on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God. Those that believe in Christ and is born again (through faith alone) will have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life and is the only way to God. As an unbeliever, there are no amount of works that will ever please God.

    Praise God for His Grace!
    Always right out of the only book that matters, The Scriptures give by God and added by His only begotten Son, Christ.

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    #20
    You need both faith and works. One without the other doesn't work.

    I hate to break it to you all but Romans 3:28 is referring to what most think it is. This was cleared up by the dead sea scrolls. If anyone cares to research: https://catholicproductions.com/blog...rks-of-the-law

    Don't forget what Paul says in Romans 2:6-7 "For God will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life…

    Eph. 2:8-9:
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    I can go on and on with this. You need faith and works. It works can damn you and they can save you if keep your faith proper. The slam dunk on this is what Martin Luther wanted to remove from the bible JAMES 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

    I don't get why anyone would not want to take all into account. You need both. Faith and Works. You can't throw out other scripture.

    Confession:

    John 20: 21-23 "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

    The priest is the mediator to Christ. The new testament makes very clear that Christ sent the apostles and their successors to carry on this same mission. To proclaim the gospel with the authority of Christ (cf. Matthew 28:18-20), to govern the Church in His stead (cf. Luke 22:29-30), and to sanctify her through the sacraments, especially the Eucharist (cf. John 6:54, I Cor. 11:24-29) and for our purpose here, Confession.

    Matt. 16:19 and 18:18. “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Christ here communicated not only authority “to pronounce doctrinal judgments, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church,” but also “the authority to absolve sins” to the apostles. Through apostolic succession Priest carry on this to this day.
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