Thread: Ash Wednesday

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  1. Member
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    #21
    Mr Coon,

    One of the every thing I enjoy is to share Scripture and discussion with other Christians and your statement on this matter is spot on "You need both faith and works. One without the other doesn't work." James 2: 14-26
    Faith Without Works Is Dead14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Isn't wonderful when we read it in its entirety, one must admit it gives a much better understanding.

    John 20: 19-23
    The Apostles Commissioned
    19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
    21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

    As you can clearly see, these are powers that were directly given from Jesus to the apostles, and it does not say anything that about powers Jesus gave to the apostles would be extended to anyone in succession. There were other powers given to the apostles, even to bring back the dead and other restorative powers, but again none of us do possess them.

    John 6: 47-51
    47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
    As we read this, we can clearly see that Jesus is making a comparison, even to the manna, which the Father Himself gave to the Hebrews. God Himself condemned the eating of many different types of flesh, especially to of one that He created in His own image, and drinking of blood was forbidden by God in any form.
    Here is what Luke 22 : 15-20
    15 And He said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
    16 for I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
    17 And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
    18 for I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
    19 And He took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, Ex. 24.6-8 which is shed for you.
    Matthew 26: 26-28
    26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
    27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    This are the words, which the Living God who gave His life for us all, has commended us to do as we replicate these commandments. You can clearly see that in any of these commandments, Jesus the Christ sent by God, does not say anything about angels to take the bread and wine to the altar on High before the Father that they may become the actual flesh and blood of Christ.

  2. Member GPtimes2's Avatar
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    #22
    One doesn't work without the other to what end? Salvation? Good Christian? Rewards in Heaven? Other? I am interested in an elaboration on this.
    I see Ephesians 8 and 9 seem to clearly say "saved" is not of works-8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    How are we to reconcile this with James without a contradiction?

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    #23
    This is where some samantics may be coming in. We sometimes use the same words for differe tont meanings.

    There is no contradiction. It is clear that Paul and James are referring to different things when they say works. Also, to me, this is were treating verses like trump cards gets people in trouble. We have to take all into account and also not forget who the writers were referring to understand the scriptures. If you believe the Bible is an inspired work then there can be no contradiction. This is also where I will appeal to scholars on the matter:

    "There are several aspects to this question. The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work on our salvation. The same apostle who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

    Romans 3:28 is a key verse in the differences between traditional Protestants and Catholics. You will notice that Paul says a man is justified by faith (pistei in Greek). When Martin Luther translated the letter to the Romans into German in the sixteenth century, he added the word alone —but alone is not in the original Greek text. The phrase “faith alone” does occur in the New Testament: one time, in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Let me quote it: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

    We should interpret Scripture by using Scripture. You will note that sometimes Paul expands his phrase from works by adding the phrase of the law, as in Romans 3:20 and 28 and Galatians 2:16. Further, sometimes Paul substitutes the phrase through the law to describe the same reality. For example, in Romans 3:20, he says, “Through the law comes knowledge of sin.” In other words, when Paul uses the word works he is talking about the Old Testament law.

    A careful reading of Galatians will show that Paul is using works of the law to refer especially to the law of circumcision. He is so strong about this that he says in Galatians 5:2, “Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.” Paul’s opponents in Galatia wanted to bring the Gentile Christians back into the Old Testament law. These are the works of the law that Paul is fighting against, and they have no place in our justification. Paul is saying in essence that Gentile Christians do not have to be circumcised and live like Jewish Christians in order to be saved.

    Paul speaks about Christians fulfilling the law by following the command to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal. 5:14). He then explains that we must show the “fruit of the Spirit” (Gal 5:16–26) and bear one another’s burdens (Gal. 6:1ff) as a way of fulfilling the “law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2). All Paul’s teaching comes down to this: Our own works can never justify us, but works that grow out of faith in Christ are part of our justification. That’s why Paul says in Philippians 2:12 you must “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” And that squares with James’s teaching that works that grow from faith justify.


    Back to James 2:14-26

    James is teaching that works show true faith. But we Catholics insist that James 2:14–26 shows that works are more than mere evidence of faith. Works actually justify. James is speaking about works growing out of faith. If works of faith are not a part of our justification, then it is hard to understand why James would say, as he does, that “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (Jas. 2:21). You may remember how Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith. Paul means that Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law, while James means that Abraham was justified by doing a work that grew out of his faith in God."

    A lot to digest. Big picture is Be baptized, repent when you sin, have faith, let the fruit of your faith be shown in your works, a.k.a. good deeds. If you want to go deeper partake in all the sacraments. Most reading this are not short of good works I am assured.

    Almost forgot this one from Jesus himself in John 5:29 "All who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good deeds, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”

    Peace andntight lines brothers, I enjoyed all the back and forth.
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GPtimes2 View Post
    One doesn't work without the other to what end? Salvation? Good Christian? Rewards in Heaven? Other? I am interested in an elaboration on this.
    I see Ephesians 8 and 9 seem to clearly say "saved" is not of works-8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    How are we to reconcile this with James without a contradiction?
    Excellent observation, however, when you look at what James is proposing is in perfect line with doing works without boasting, since by our faith and our love for Christ we do His works and commandments, love thy neighbor as I have love you.
    "15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

    Imagine. Amen

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    #25
    Mr Coon

    James. 2:21 -James continues to make the case that saving faith in God results in the believer doing good works. Works do not save, but they are the natural result of a faith which does. Now James turns to two examples from the Old Testament, stories his Jewish readership would have known well.
    James's point throughout this section has been that works flow naturally from saving faith. His teaching complements that of Paul in Ephesians 2:8–10, where Paul is clear that we are saved through faith by God's grace and end up, inevitably, doing the good works that God has planned for us all along.

    A lot to digest. Big picture is Be baptized, repent when you sin, have faith, let the fruit of your faith be shown in your works

    Excellent closing sentence. Amen

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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.coon View Post
    Until that point I was a hard core "you don't need to confess to a priest for forgiveness". Buddy, I tell you we do. I tried otherwise for years and never received peace in my heart.
    No, you don't. No liaison is necessary between man and God. Just realize that this was YOUR personal experience. Don't confuse your emotional needs with what others require. Because you only get fulfillment from ritual and pomp and circumstance doesn't make it a requirement for everyone.

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    #27
    I confess my sins and repentance to the only One who paid my sin debt and gave me His imputed righteousness. His name is Jesus.

    There is no one else who is qualified and has paid the price for my sins.
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