Okie, when we deny the absence of an absolute we’re left with some incredible questions but one comes to mind as I read your post:
You reference “good” and “bad/evil” choices in your posts. The question becomes- How do we differentiate between good and evil? The answer for most and even for you is a moral law. If we have a moral law placed on our hearts where does it come from? Who is the moral law giver?
2007 Ranger188vs, Mercury optimax 150
Two immediate pieces of scripture regarding temptation that come to mind aside from the garden of Eden would be:Originally Posted by Okie74133
1. Jesus was led by the devil into the wilderness for 40 days where he was tempted continuously.
2. The book of Job describes God allowing Satan to test the most upright man in the world at the time- Job himself.
However your statement about people not taking personal responsibility for their actions is agreeably inappropriate. The most responsible thing to state would be that we are all fallen broken people easily seduced in moments of weakness. Simply stating “the devil made me do it” isn’t showing humility.
Last edited by Iowabass3826; 01-11-2023 at 07:00 PM.
2007 Ranger188vs, Mercury optimax 150
Not sure what you mean by denying the absence of an absolute. I never denied the source of evil or the source of good. Maybe you assumed some things. My point was simply that when presented with temptation we either choose to do the right thing or we choose to do the wrong thing. It's always a choice and we always are the one that determines that. No, the devil didn't "make" you do it. He suggested something and you "chose" to do it. It's really that simple and it's not even debatable.
Like digthemup said, our society is addicted to escaping personal responsibility. Unfortunately that extends inside the walls of the church.
Were aligned.
2007 Ranger188vs, Mercury optimax 150
God created Lucifer...because of the choices Lucifer made, he fell from God's grace.
So in essence, God did not create the devil....
Same ideology with mankind...because of our free will we make choices. God does NOT interfere with man's ability to chose freely.
Last edited by drifter106; 01-12-2023 at 12:44 PM.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
Devil, King of lies, Father of sin,or Satin is variable names give to Lucifer after the fall.
God does interfere with man's ability to choose freely - if this were true, it would make God's word not true, since He said that He gave man free will.
OH MY... I left out a important word in my reply. Went back and corrected it....thanks for pointing that out digthemup. I stand corrected....
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
When one looks at the guardrails God gives us through morals, some may say that God is interfering with our free will. However, I believe that the choices are still ours to do good or not to do good, therefore, it is by our free will that we sin daily and are in need of the Blood of Christ to continually atone and cleanse us when we earnestly seek repentance.
Did God know beforehand, that Lucifer would fall from grace, and cause mankind all this trouble?
God created Lucifer as well as He created you even though God is all knowing, so there must be a purpose for things as such, yet, I do not have a good reason why.
God being omnipotent....yes he knew, IF that was his will.
God knew what would happen with Adam and Eve....but out of love for mankind he had a plan for redemption.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
With the rise in Calvinism and determinism in the church, I am surprised that in 3 pages, no one mentions the elect and reprobate giving into their nature.
2012 Ranger Z521 2023 Mercury 250 Pro XS
I don't see such a rise in our church nor in friends attending other denomination, Baptist and Methodist, however, I do not know any Presbyterians to affirm such a rebirth.
BTW, I believe that this would be contrarian to what Paul teaches us in the Spirit in Romans 2:14-16, and also in Philippians.
Unless a person contradicts everything they claim God to be, the answer is absolutely YES. If a person believes God is in total control and everything is according to his plan, then you can't exclude Satan. It would be accurate to say that God created a path to salvation but he also created the reason salvation is needed. It's like a fireman setting your house on fire so you'll need him to extinguish it. That doesn't exactly sound like love but that's because we aren't supposed to understand it.
Very peculiar analogy, which it makes me wonder if you are saying that God is needy of our exaltation and love, though, I agree with you that our limited minds have in no way the comprehension of the purpose and reason of all God's creations.
The state of everything, as it is, is by design unless one argues that God's plan (and will) is not being done and fulfilled. The answer to the question asked by rexico often causes hesitation as if satan happened against Gods will. Does anyone think God was powerless to prevent the existence of satan? I would assume not. I don't know if your term "needy" is accurate but it can't really be argued that the need for salvation came about because the circumstances making it necessary was by design.
Okie,
I was very clear in my reply to the OP, God created Lucifer the archangel in all purity as the others, however, I agreed with you that our limited minds do not have the comprehension of the purpose and reason of all God's creations.
That said, God tries to give us some clarity to the many varieties of things He created in Isaiah 45: 5-13, and I pray that you may have a better understanding than I.
I would push back on the analogy a bit, my friend :) Knowing something will happen does not equal God making it happen. That would mean God is responsible and authors/determines ALL evil, because He is omniscient. We know God is definitely not evil nor causes man to sin.
2012 Ranger Z521 2023 Mercury 250 Pro XS
The problem with what you're saying is that it turns God into a helpless uninvolved bystander. Allowing something to happen and not preventing it when you had knowledge of it beforehand is a form of condonation. I know that's uncomfortable in the religious environment because we are all taught to not go there. The narrative we are supposed to adhere to is the one that simply says evil is out to get us but God will save us from it because he loves us. We aren't supposed to ask why God allows satan to exist in the first place when he knew (omniscience) the grief and pain he would cause all of mankind. Since God is the all knowing creator of everything and the highest power and authority that exists, we can't just pretend he is, or ever was, powerless to eliminate the evil that we need him to save us from. You used the word "making" it happen as if it's different from "letting" something happen when you could prevent it. If I knew beforehand that someone was going to break into your home and do harm to your family, yet I didn't warn you, call authorities, or make any effort to prevent it, what would you and public opinion think about me? I mean, technically I didn't "make" it happen so would you still see me as a good loving person?
Last edited by Okie74133; 02-03-2023 at 10:43 AM.
Okie,
You have brought up a great discussion in the points that you have made, and many of those points God does address in Ezekiel 33 with regard to being a watchman and the responsibility with being a watchman for God and men.
BTw, the first 2 chapters of Job may also give you some insight of God knowing afore hand yet allowing certain situations, which we would look as foolish.
Last edited by digthemup; 02-03-2023 at 09:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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