Preferred reel size for a NRX+ 822 DSR?

[Big_fish]

Drag performance is driven by the surface area of the drag washers. It is simple physics. The drag washers/drag stack on a 1000 reel is substantially smaller than the drag washers/drag stack on a 4000 reel. Just pull out the drag washers from each reel size and compare them. The more "surface" area you have on a drag washer, the more consistent and smooth the drag performance will be (no skipping, jumping, sticking). Consistent and smooth drag performance when fighting larger fish = better control of the fish, allowing an angler to let the rod and the reel wear fish out while not giving up complete control to the fish where it can take you into cover and break you off. Smooth drag is not a function of just having no drag pressure and letting a reel free spool. Drag performance is the ability to adjust the drag setting to a "pressure" that allows a fish to pull line smoothly off the reel when it surges, but not let the fish to swim freely during the fight.

If less washers and less washer surface was the key to smooth drag performance, then why would all high end reels have drag stacks of three washers and why would manufacturers create shallow spools on smaller reels to increase the size of the washers they put in their reels??? They do it because the science says the greater the drag surface, the better the drag performance. Go one step further, the manufacturers of higher end reels replace felt washers with carbon fiber washers because the science says that the surface of a carbon fiber washer provides a better surface that results in better drag performance under load, and load is a big deal when fighting larger, hard surging, fish on a smaller reel with smaller drag washers. All of today's reels provide micro drag adjustments. They all do, so that an angler can really dial in the drag in a way that helps them land more fish. And, it bears repeating, it depends on the fish you are chasing. I am chasing large smallmouth, 5+ lb fish, in ultra clear water systems, that take a lot of pressure, so light line, florocarbon line and spinning gear are almost always in my hands and if I am lucky enough to connect with a 6+ lb fish, I want all the odds stacked in my favor to let me land that fish, get a photo and release it.

Like others have said, use what is more comfortable, feels best for you. I agree with that statement 100%. As the saying goes, opinions are like AHs, everyone has one, so to each their own. However it is impossible to deny the physics behind what drives drag performance, line management and casting distance.

Yeah we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

And as for carbon fiber washers being smoother than felt washers, I don’t think your going to find many people to agree with you on that one. Carbon fiber washers are meant for higher drag pressures and bigger fish, mainly saltwater fish where they take multiple long hard runs. This creates a lot of heat and will deteriorate felt washes rather quickly, while carbon washers won’t.

There is a reason in the high end reels you are talking about, everything 2500 size and over have carbon washers, while the 1000 size reels meant for light line still have felt washers. That’s because they are smoother and will protect light line better

[reason162]

If less washers and less washer surface was the key to smooth drag performance, then why would all high end reels have drag stacks of three washers and why would manufacturers create shallow spools on smaller reels to increase the size of the washers they put in their reels???

The relevant question is - why would Shimano/Daiwa subtract washers on their finesse reels, reels meant for light line bass fishing, when the same (shallow) spool can easily accommodate more washers?

Why do lake Biwa pros and guides who regularly use 3 and 4lb straight fluoro to catch 8lb+ fish exclusively use these finesse tuned 2500 sized reels, and not 3000 or 4000 sized reels if the larger dia spools/washers afford them a smoother drag at lower settings?

Are we to believe that Shimano and Daiwa have their engineering backwards, or is the more likely explanation the end user in America - where 6 and 8lb class line is considered finesse - thinks bigger is better bc we're not keeping up with the design philosophy of the Japanese companies?

[JJohnSind]

My “common sense” leads me to believe more drag surface area = more friction. More friction isn’t the same thing as “smoother”. More friction helps with higher drag settings, which make sense - bigger reel, bigger line, bigger fish. A bigger washer of felt could hold more lubricant, which would contribute to smoother though.

[MainelySmallmouth]

Yeah we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

And as for carbon fiber washers being smoother than felt washers, I don’t think your going to find many people to agree with you on that one. Carbon fiber washers are meant for higher drag pressures and bigger fish, mainly saltwater fish where they take multiple long hard runs. This creates a lot of heat and will deteriorate felt washes rather quickly, while carbon washers won’t.

There is a reason in the high end reels you are talking about, everything 2500 size and over have carbon washers, while the 1000 size reels meant for light line still have felt washers. That’s because they are smoother and will protect light line better

There is no doubt that carbon fiber drag washers are used to dissipate heat when the drag is locked down when fighting larger fish, that is true, but carbon fiber drag washers are not solely reserved for locking down drags. Just a couple of quick google searches and you will find the following:

"carbon fiber material has more friction than standard felt washers providing more stopping power and a smoother line release under tension."

"carbon fiber drag washers make the drag smoother across all drag pressures and gives the reel a higher max drag pressure. This is important in all techniques, whether higher or lower drag settings are required."

And if you think manufacturers use felt drag washers in their reels because they work better than carbon fiber, versus the fact that felt washers are significantly cheaper, you are just not being honest with yourself.

Again, larger drag surfaces do provide greater stopping power when you lock down a drag, but their true benefit is the elimination of drags that "jump" or "skip" when fighting a fish at ANY DRAG pressure, which is how you break light line (shock). With light line, you want to know your drag is going to provide consistent, smooth release of line under pressure, which is why pros used to back reel versus play fish on the drag system of the reel. Smooth reliable release of line is key when fighting surging fish like a smallmouth, and carbon fiber washers and larger drag surface both aide in providing better performance with this aspect of drag performance than do felt washers. It is just fact.

It is fine if you don't believe it, want to argue physics or you are just more comfortable using small reels with stock felt washers. But in almost all high-end reels today, manufactures start putting carbon fiber drag washers in their 3000 size reels, which one would hardly consider a tuna reel. Haters gonna hate, which is fine, but the evolution of legacy concepts in fishing are evolving and some of those evolutions with the advent of lighter materials are using larger reels to provide anglers better performance with spinning reel applications. To quote the iconic Seth Fieder, "stay away from those 1500, 2000 and 2500 size reels, the bigger reels just provide better line management, less line twist, smoother more reliable drag performance and longer casts" when talking about fishing hair jigs with light braid and floro leaders..... Hmmmm, hair jig fishing seems like a pretty finesse technique to me, but again, what does he know...... I mean let's be honest, Seth Feider could fish any size reel he wants, as that has nothing to do with sponsors driving fishing decisions, as he could fish an Exist or Certate 2000 or 2500 if he wanted to, but he (and BP, Josh Douglas, KVD and many others) choose the larger size spinning reels versus the tiny ones because of the benefits they provide when BASS FISHING.... But as you say, agree to disagree...

[lisa1117]

I'm rabbit holing a spinning real for my hair jig rod. I fish all 3000 size, you almost have me convinced on the 4000. I'm wanting to slow down my retrieve to 30" to 32" per handle turn. The 3000 fits the bill and has great drag. With a 4000 I pick up a little speed due to the larger spool size and weight of the reel goes up, in fairness 4000 should cast a little farther and have a little more supple drag. Gussy is still using 2500 and now moved to 3000 size Shimano reels. He indicated to Shimano's slower oscillation of the rotor laid the line better on the spool (called Aero Wrap 2) which allows father cast.
Supper OCD, I like having duplicates of mainstream spinning rods in my boat. My two 872 have same reels, 842 have same reels, so in that realm my 901 and 902 will have same reels just different speeds. Your options are Excense, Vanquish, or Airity in 3000 or 4000? Take your pick. What would you choose? What fun!!

[reason162]

And if you think manufacturers use felt drag washers in their reels because they work better than carbon fiber, versus the fact that felt washers are significantly cheaper, you are just not being honest with yourself.

Again, larger drag surfaces do provide greater stopping power when you lock down a drag, but their true benefit is the elimination of drags that "jump" or "skip" when fighting a fish at ANY DRAG pressure, which is how you break light line (shock). With light line, you want to know your drag is going to provide consistent, smooth release of line under pressure, which is why pros used to back reel versus play fish on the drag system of the reel. Smooth reliable release of line is key when fighting surging fish like a smallmouth, and carbon fiber washers and larger drag surface both aide in providing better performance with this aspect of drag performance than do felt washers. It is just fact.

I sincerely hope you're not "upgrading" your stock Certate/Airity/Exist felt washers to carbon fiber.

But in almost all high-end reels today, manufactures start putting carbon fiber drag washers in their 3000 size reels

That is patently false.

On the Stella/Vanquish (Shimano's highest end spinners) it's felt all the way across. On the Twinpower only the 5000 size starts getting carbon fiber washers. Afaik Exist/Airity/Certate ATDs are all felt washers (and they are the smoothest on the market).

The only model I can find which swaps to carbon fiber at a 3000 size is the Stradic/Vanford - hardly "high end."

Also, if you read the intended use for the various sizes on the manufacturer's website, 3000 and above are all listed for saltwater species:





Here's what Shimano says about the Twin Power drag -

[MainelySmallmouth]

I sincerely hope you're not "upgrading" your stock Certate/Airity/Exist felt washers to carbon fiber.

I ABSOLUTELY DO, ON EVERY SINGLE REEL. ANYTHING I CAN DO TO IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE OF ANY REEL I PURCHASE, I DO IT. WHETHER IT BE BEARING UPGRADES OR DRAG WASHER UPGRADES, ACROSS THE BOARD, I DO IT. NOW ADMITTEDLY, I DON'T FISH AIRITY OR EXIST REELS. NOR DO I FISH STELLAS OR VANQUISH REELS. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO SPEND $500+ TO GET "HIGH END" REEL FEELING AND PERFORMANCE. INSTEAD OF BUY $300 ISH REELS AND DO BEARING UPGRADES AND WASHER UPGRADES TO IMPROVE THE REELS I FISH SO THEY PERFORM AND FEEL MORE LIKE HIGH END REELS. ASK ANYONE WHO HAS PURCHASE A SPINNING REEL FROM ME THAT I HAVE UPGRADED WITH BEARINGS AND WASHERS, HOW THOSE REELS FEEL AND PERFORM, AND THE FEEDBACK YOU GET WILL MAKE MY POINT.

MY PHRASE OF HIGH END, PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CLEARLY DEFINED, AS I SIMPLY WON'T AND DON'T BELIEVE AN ANGLER HAS TO SPEND MORE THAN $300 TO GET REELS THAT PERFORM LIKE HIGH END REELS WITH A FEW VERY SIMPLE AND EASY MODIFICATIONS. AND TO SUGGEST JUST BECAUSE A REEL COMES STOCK WITH X FEATURES/TECH, AS THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO FISH SAID REEL, IS TO IGNORE AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY BUILT AROUND SIMPLE UPGRADES TO MAKE A "STOCK" REEL PERFORM EVEN BETTER. THINGS LIKE UPGRADING DRAG WASHERS.

That is patently false.

On the Stella/Vanquish (Shimano's highest end spinners) it's felt all the way across. On the Twinpower only the 5000 size starts getting carbon fiber washers. Afaik Exist/Airity/Certate ATDs are all felt washers (and they are the smoothest on the market).

The only model I can find which swaps to carbon fiber at a 3000 size is the Stradic/Vanford - hardly "high end."

SEE MY POINT ABOVE, I SHOULD HAVE QUALIFIED WHAT I VIEW AS "HIGH END", AS SHIMANO IS ACTUALLY THE COMPARISON I WAS TARGETING, AS THEY PUT (AND PROMOTE) THEIR CROSS FIBER CARBON WASHERS IN A NUMBER OF THEIR REELS IN THE 3000 SIZE AND UP, INCLUDING SUSTAIN. IN MY VIEW, A 3000 TO 4000 SIZE VANFORD, STRADIC OR SUSTAIN WITH A BEARING UPGRADE ARE PRETTY SPECIAL REELS FOR THEIR PRICE POINTS, WITH A TON OF SHIMANO TECH IN IT. WITH THE BEARING UPGRADE (AND THE FACT THEY COME STOCK WITH CROSS FIBER CARBON DRAG WASHERS), THESE REELS ARE EVEN VERY REFINED. SO, MY STATEMENT IS ONLY "PATENTLY" FALSE BASED ON LOOKING AT ONLY CERTAIN SUBSETS OF HIGHER END REELS.

Also, if you read the intended use for the various sizes on the manufacturer's website, 3000 and above are all listed for saltwater species:

THIS REFERENCE IS CUTE. THE "JAN" CODE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SPEC SHEET YOU HAVE PROVIDED TELLS YOU THIS A FISHING SUMMARY THAT SHOWS RECOMMENDED USES IN THE JAPANESE MARKET. THIS IS KIND OF LIKE COMPARING SPEED LIMITS FROM DIFFERENT COUNRTRIES. SAFE TO SAY OUR TARGET SPECIES FOR RECREATIONAL ANGLERS IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN THEIR, INCLUDING THEY WAY THEY FISH FOR DIFFERENT SPECIES COMPARED TO AMERICAN ANGLERS. I THINK IT WOULD BE SAFE TO SAY THAT IT WOULD BE REALLY HARD TO ARGUE THAT TODAY'S LIGHT WEIGHT REELS ARE NOT MADE TO TARGET FESH WATER BASS (SMALLIES & LARGIES).

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE CARBON FIBER DRAG WASHERS ARE BETTER THAN FELT, LET'S NOT FORGET THE PREMISE OF THE ORIGINAL QUESTION, WHAT SIZE REEL FOR AN 822 DROP SHOT ROD. AND WHILE I AGREE WEIGHT OF A COMBO IS A CONSIDERATION, I THINK BALANCE IS EQUALLY, IF NOT MORE, IMPORTANT. I ALSO THINK ALL OF THE BENEFITS THAT COME WITH USING A LARGER REEL IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, IE LARGER SPOOLS FOR BETTER LINE MANAGEMENT, FASTER LINE PICK UP (NOT EVEN CLOSE WHEN CONSIDERING INCHES PER TURN), LESS LINE TWIST AND BETTER DRAG PERFORMANCE BY PROVIDING GREAT DRAG SURFACE FOR SMOOTHER LINE RELEASE (FELT OR CARBON). ADD TO THE LIST CASTING DISTANCE IF YOU NEED TO GET YOUR BAIT AWAY FROM THE BOAT IN GIN CLEAR / HIGHLY PRESSURED WATERS (ADMITTEDLY NOT AS BIG OF A DEAL IF YOU FISHING VERTICALLY), AND THE BENEFITS OF A LARGER REEL SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, REGARDLESS OF THE CARBON OR FELT DRAG WASHER ARGUEMENT.





Here's what Shimano says about the Twin Power drag -

[/QUOTE]

[reason162]

I ABSOLUTELY DO, ON EVERY SINGLE REEL. ANYTHING I CAN DO TO IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE OF ANY REEL I PURCHASE, I DO IT. WHETHER IT BE BEARING UPGRADES OR DRAG WASHER UPGRADES, ACROSS THE BOARD, I DO IT.

The point is, CF is not an upgrade on freshwater spinning reels, esp when you're talking 4-6lb fluoro and its respective drag settings.

And if you think manufacturers use felt drag washers in their reels because they work better than carbon fiber, versus the fact that felt washers are significantly cheaper, you are just not being honest with yourself.

So Shimano is cutting corners on all sizes in their flagship models (Stella/Vanquish), but giving us bonus carbon fiber washers in the Stradic/Vanford line? I know the Japanese can be strange, but in what universe does that kind of cost-savings logic make sense?

SAFE TO SAY OUR TARGET SPECIES FOR RECREATIONAL ANGLERS IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN THEIR, INCLUDING THEY WAY THEY FISH FOR DIFFERENT SPECIES COMPARED TO AMERICAN ANGLERS.

But we're talking about the exact same species - and when they fish for bass in Japan, they use 2500 sized reels across the board - with light line and felt washers.

[Big_fish]

There is no doubt that carbon fiber drag washers are used to dissipate heat when the drag is locked down when fighting larger fish, that is true, but carbon fiber drag washers are not solely reserved for locking down drags. Just a couple of quick google searches and you will find the following:

"carbon fiber material has more friction than standard felt washers providing more stopping power and a smoother line release under tension."

"carbon fiber drag washers make the drag smoother across all drag pressures and gives the reel a higher max drag pressure. This is important in all techniques, whether higher or lower drag settings are required."

So are we just going to quote things without any sources? Unless these are from an actual study from a scientist/engineer/physicist, or from the manufacturer themselves it’s all a matter of opinion. You are coming across as, and even stating that these things are indeed fact.

And if you think manufacturers use felt drag washers in their reels because they work better than carbon fiber, versus the fact that felt washers are significantly cheaper, you are just not being honest with yourself.

Again with the “just not being honest with yourself.” I have gone back and forth between carbon and felt washers and if I’m being honest with myself I much prefer the felt washers.

Just like it was stated earlier if it was all about cost cutting, these manufacturers wouldn’t put carbon washers in a mid tier reel like the Stradic FL and Vanford, while all their high end reels geared toward freshwater have felt across the board. These high end reels are built for performance over everything, cost be damned. You would be silly to think that they would cheap out on one of the most important parts of a spinning reel just to save a few pennys, especially when they are charging upwards of $850.

Again, larger drag surfaces do provide greater stopping power when you lock down a drag, but their true benefit is the elimination of drags that "jump" or "skip" when fighting a fish at ANY DRAG pressure, which is how you break light line (shock). With light line, you want to know your drag is going to provide consistent, smooth release of line under pressure, which is why pros used to back reel versus play fish on the drag system of the reel. Smooth reliable release of line is key when fighting surging fish like a smallmouth, and carbon fiber washers and larger drag surface both aide in providing better performance with this aspect of drag performance than do felt washers. It is just fact.

Again it is not a fact, just a matter of opinion. Your opinion to be specific.

There was a thread on tackletour in which a Shimano Rep addressed these exact issues regarding drag slipping. To be clear this is coming from someone working for Shimano. More reliable than anything your going to read from a quick google search. I will quote it below:

“This is a characteristic of carbon drag washers. They will slip at light settings. This is why we use the felt washers in the reels intended for use in freshwater. The true inshore reels have cross carbon because they tend to fish with more drag pressure. The carbon washers have more durability, but suffer performance-wise at the lower drag settings.

According to the internet carbon drag is an upgrade for any reel they go in... 🙄”

It is fine if you don't believe it, want to argue physics or you are just more comfortable using small reels with stock felt washers. But in almost all high-end reels today, manufactures start putting carbon fiber drag washers in their 3000 size reels, which one would hardly consider a tuna reel. Haters gonna hate, which is fine, but the evolution of legacy concepts in fishing are evolving and some of those evolutions with the advent of lighter materials are using larger reels to provide anglers better performance with spinning reel applications. To quote the iconic Seth Fieder, "stay away from those 1500, 2000 and 2500 size reels, the bigger reels just provide better line management, less line twist, smoother more reliable drag performance and longer casts" when talking about fishing hair jigs with light braid and floro leaders..... Hmmmm, hair jig fishing seems like a pretty finesse technique to me, but again, what does he know...... I mean let's be honest, Seth Feider could fish any size reel he wants, as that has nothing to do with sponsors driving fishing decisions, as he could fish an Exist or Certate 2000 or 2500 if he wanted to, but he (and BP, Josh Douglas, KVD and many others) choose the larger size spinning reels versus the tiny ones because of the benefits they provide when BASS FISHING.... But as you say, agree to disagree...

Almost all high end reels have carbon washers starting at 3000 size? This is just not true. The true high end freshwater reels from Shimano and Daiwa have felt across the board. There are only a couple of reels such as the Stradic FL and Vanford that do this, and that is because 3000 and up are meant for saltwater. Nobody is considering that size a tuna reel. That is just you putting words in people’s mouths. In actuality 3000 to 5000 sized reels are meant for inshore fishing, where pretty much any of the fish you encounter are going to fight harder and longer than any largemouth or a smallmouth ever could. That is why carbon is used in these sizes to keep the drag washers from heating up and deteriorating.

As for “haters gonna hate” that’s a very loose use of that phrase. Nobody is hating on you, just a difference of opinion. If you go around calling everyone a hater that has a different opinion than you then everyone must be a hater.

I don’t care what size reels you use or what your preferences are, I just like the discussions it creates on why one might be better than the other. If everyone had the same opinion and used the same things life would be pretty boring.

[MainelySmallmouth]

As for “haters gonna hate” that’s a very loose use of that phrase. Nobody is hating on you, just a difference of opinion. If you go around calling everyone a hater that has a different opinion than you then everyone must be a hater.

I don’t care what size reels you use or what your preferences are, I just like the discussions it creates on why one might be better than the other. If everyone had the same opinion and used the same things life would be pretty boring.[/QUOTE]

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THESE TWO PARAGRAPHS. MY HATERS GONNA HATE WAS MORE A POKE AT THE FACT THAT SMALLER REEL FISHERMEN WILL DIE SAYING SMALLER REELS ARE THE ONLY WAY (JUST LIKE FORD, CHEVY AND RAM OWNERS DIG IN ON THEIR BRAND). AND, I AGREE IT WOULD BE BORING IF EVERYONE AGREED, AND IT IS GOOD THAT PEOPLE HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THE TOPICS THEY PROVIDE FEEDBACK ON. THAT IS CALLED HEALTHY DEBATE, WHICH IS THE PURPOSE OF A FORUM THAT SEEKS VARIOUS FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND. I HAVE FISHED BOTH SMALL AND LARGE SIZE REELS, WITH FELT AND WITH CARBON FIBER WASHERS, AND I HAVE HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF SEAT TIME FISHING BOTH SET UPS CHASING LARGE SMALLIES (AND A FEW GREEN FISH) AND MY POSITION ON THE TOPIC IS BASED ON MY (YES MY) EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH CONFIGURATIONS. AND I CAN SAY WITHOUT HESITATION, THAT THE BENEFITS OF USING LARGER SIZE REELS (I USE A 4000 SIZE REEL), PROVIDES A BETTER FISHING EXPERIENCE THAN DOES FISHING SMALLER REELS (I USED TO USE A 2500 SIZE REEL). LINE MANAGEMENT (LINE COMING OFF THE SPOOL AND LINE TWISTS), BETTER, CASTING DISTANCE, BETTER, RETRIEIVE RATIO (IPT), BETTER AND DRAG PERFORMANCE, BETTER. THESE SPECIFIC MEASUREMENTS ARE NOT DEBATABLE, AS THEY ARE FACTUALLY ALL BETTER WITH A LARGER REEL. ACROSS THE BOARD, ALL THE MEASURABLE CATEGORIES THAT MATTER TO SOMEONE ON THE WATER FISHING ARE BETTER WITH A LARGER REEL, WITH THE ONLY POTENTIAL CATEGORY NOT BEING IN FAVOR OF LARGER REELS BEING WEIGHT. IF YOU ENJOY FISHING SMALLER REELS, STICK WITH IT AND HAVE AT IT, BUT I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO REFUTE THE MEASURESMENTS CITED ABOVE ARE NOT BETTER WITH A LARGER ARBOR REEL THAN A SMALLER ARBOR REEL. DON'T SAY WELL FOR THIS APPLICATION, THIS MEASUREMENT DOESN'T MATTER ETC ETC.... ACTUALLY REFUTE THAT SMALLER ARBOR REELS CAST BETTER, MANAGE LINE BETTER, HAVE BETTER LINE PICK UP OR PROVIDE BETTER DRAG PERFORMANCE THAN LARGER REELS......

HERE IS ALL I WILL SAY ABOUT CARBON FIBER WASHER UPGRADES. TO SAY THAT JUST BECAUSE A MANUFACTURER PUTS A CERTAIN COMPONENT ON AN ITEM IS THE "BEST COMPONENT" FOR THAT ITEM IS FOOLISH. TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MANUFACTURERS ARE ALWAYS SEEKING PLACES IN THE PRODUCTION PROCESS TO "REDUCE" EXPENSE TO IMPROVE MARGINS. USING THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY AS AN EXAMPLE, SAYING THE BEST TIRE FOR YOUR VEHHICLE IS THE TIRE THE MANUFACTURER PUTS ON THAT VEHICLE IS SOMETHING EVERYONE CAN ACKNOWLEDGE IS JUST NOT TRUE. THE MANUFACTURERS WILL DEFEND THE TIRES THEY USE AS BEING THE BEST, AS THEY HAVE TO SAY THAT AS THEY ARE TRYING TO SELL YOU THE VEHICLE. THE REALITY IS THEY NEGOTIATE THE BEST DEAL THEY CAN FOR A DECENT TIRE TO "REDUCE COST AND IMPROVE MARGINS" WITHOUT COMPLETE SACRIFICING PERFORMANCE OF THE VEHICLE. DO STOCK TIRES WORK, OF COURSE THEY DO. ARE THERE BETTER TIRES FOR THAT VEHILCE, OF COURSE THERE. AND THE PROOF OF THE POINT IS WHEN IT COMES TIME REPLACE THE STOCK TIRES MOST CONSUMERS DON'T SIMPLY GO WITH THE STOCK TIRES BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE VEHICLE CAME WITH. THEY SHOP AROUND. SAME IS TRUE WITH REEL COMPONENTS, AND DRAG WASHERS ARE ONE OF THOSE COMPONENTS WHERE BETTER COMPONENTS EXIST. AFTER FISHING REELS WITH STOCK FELT WASHERS AND COMPARING THEM TO THE REELS THAT I UPGRADED TO CARBON FIBER WASHERS, I HAVE REPLACED THE FELT WASHERS IN ALL MY REELS THAT CAME WITH FELT WITH CARBON FIBER DRAG WASHERS AND HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK. MY ACTUAL ON THE WATER EXPERIENCE TELLS ME THAT CARBON FIBER DRAG WASHERS PERFORM BETTER, AT ALL DRAG PRESSURES, WITH RESPECT TO CONSISTENTLY SMOOTH LINE RELEASE WHEN THE DRAG IS ENGAGED THAN DO STOCK FELT WASHERS. THAT IS MY ACTUAL, ON THE WATER EXPERIENCE, WITH HUNDREDS OF FISH CATCHES.

I THOROUGHLY ENJOY THE DEBATE AND DON'T MIND HAVING A STRONG "OPINION" ON THE TOPIC THAT OTHERS MAY NOT AGREE WITH. WHEN DEBATING A HAVE A TENDENCY TO MAKE ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS, AND FOLKS HAVE CALLED ME OUT ON THAT, WHICH IS GOOD / APPROPRIATE. THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES, AND I KNOW THAT DESPITE MY TENDENCY TO GO THERE WHEN MAKING A POINT/AGRUMENT. THAT SAID, MY POSITIONS ARE ALWAYS BASED ON REAL LIFE, ACTUAL, HANDS ON EXPERIENCE, HENCE THE PASSION I HAVE FOR A GIVEN TOPIC. I ENJOY BEING CHALLENGED, AND ACTUAL WELCOME IT. AND I AM WILLING TO LISTEN WHEN OTHER BRING UP POINTS THAT I MAY NOT HAVE THOUGHT OF OR CONSIDERED, ESPECIALLY IF IT GIVES ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO IMPROVE MY EXPERIENCE ON THE WATER CHASING BIG SMALLIES. TIGHT LINES AND GREAT HEALTH IN 2023.

[reason162]

THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES, AND I KNOW THAT DESPITE MY TENDENCY TO GO THERE WHEN MAKING A POINT/AGRUMENT.

It's good that you are self aware enough to acknowledge this, because your proclamations based on your own anecdotal experience sounds pretty absolutist 2 sentences later -

LINE MANAGEMENT (LINE COMING OFF THE SPOOL AND LINE TWISTS), BETTER, CASTING DISTANCE, BETTER, RETRIEIVE RATIO (IPT), BETTER AND DRAG PERFORMANCE, BETTER. THESE SPECIFIC MEASUREMENTS ARE NOT DEBATABLE, AS THEY ARE FACTUALLY ALL BETTER WITH A LARGER REEL.

And btw, the merits of larger arbors isn't remotely settled even in this thread. Based on my experiences and my understanding of guide train size/placement, rods are usually built with a specific range of spool diameters in mind for optimum casting performance. Loomis did not design the DSR with 4000 sized reels in mind.
Neither is drag performance at low settings, as pointed out by big_fish re "finesse tuned" 2500 models with single washers. IPT depends on the situation, that's why in Japan they offer several gear ratios in every size. I prefer a low 5:1 for spybaits for instance, and 6:1 for slack line techniques.

As for washer material in low drag settings - I've run this experiment several times in the past, and felt is so obviously superior that I kick myself even today for wasting the time/money/energy to trial CF in my small spinning reels. It actually cost me the biggest weakfish I've ever seen, but I don't want to dwell on that

You obviously have things set up the way you like and that's great, but on this point I'm responding just as a PSA for newbies who might go out and ruin their drags by "upgrading" to carbon fiber.

[reason162]

There was a thread on tackletour in which a Shimano Rep addressed these exact issues regarding drag slipping. To be clear this is coming from someone working for Shimano. More reliable than anything your going to read from a quick google search. I will quote it below:

“This is a characteristic of carbon drag washers. They will slip at light settings. This is why we use the felt washers in the reels intended for use in freshwater. The true inshore reels have cross carbon because they tend to fish with more drag pressure. The carbon washers have more durability, but suffer performance-wise at the lower drag settings.

According to the internet carbon drag is an upgrade for any reel they go in... ”

Here's how Daiwa Japan responded to my inquiry re carbon fiber washers -

"Regarding your inquiry, it is not necessary to change the drag washers to carbon fiber.
Felt ATD washers are smoother at lower drag settings.

Yours sincerely,

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[MainelySmallmouth]

Here's how Daiwa Japan responded to my inquiry re carbon fiber washers -

It's not necessary to upgrade your tires on your vehicle as the ones we put on your car will suffice. Of course the manufacturer is going to tell you what they put in a reel is "good enough", but just like adding bearings to replace bushings, doing so makes a better reel. We will have to agree to disagree that the manufacturer will ever acknowledge there are better components that can be added to one of their reels. Their response "is not necessary" says it all. I am sure I can get a carbon fiber drag washer manufacturer to tell you it's best to replace felt drags always because they perform better. They may not be necessary when fishing for river trout, or panfish, but they will still perform better than felt. We could play that game forever....

[reason162]

It's not necessary to upgrade your tires on your vehicle as the ones we put on your car will suffice. Of course the manufacturer is going to tell you what they put in a reel is "good enough", but just like adding bearings to replace bushings, doing so makes a better reel. We will have to agree to disagree that the manufacturer will ever acknowledge there are better components that can be added to one of their reels. Their response "is not necessary" says it all. I am sure I can get a carbon fiber drag washer manufacturer to tell you it's best to replace felt drags always because they perform better. They may not be necessary when fishing for river trout, or panfish, but they will still perform better than felt. We could play that game forever....

I couldn't tell you what tires my car came with, I couldn't tell you what tires I have just driving the car - I'm not a car or tire enthusiast and if it gets me from point A to point B I'm happy. I suspect most drivers are the same.

I am, however, a fishing enthusiast, and I can tell the difference between a slippery, stuttering, sticky drag and one that has zero startup, and remains smooth throughout a range of drag pressure and speeds immediately - on the first fish that takes drag. And again, we're talking about flagship reels, reels that cost $800+ and come with lifetime service plans which almost invariably include new drag washers installed annually if the customer asks for it. These are not reels that Shimano or Daiwa sell much of; they are a benchmark of their design and workmanship. It makes zero sense for Shimano to cheap out on drag washers in a Stella, while popping them into Stradics.

And I'm not sure why you bring up trout/panfish. I only target smallmouth in freshwater, just like you. Like you, I've landed hundreds of 4s and dozens of 5s, and a couple over 6, in a state that's not known for brown bass (or any bass except the striped variety lol). 90% of which were on 4 -6lb straight fluoro or fluoro leader, on a 2500 Certate/Airity/Exist with stock felt washers. When they wear out, I buy the pre-greased, stock, ATD washers to replace them (and btw, don't even mess with the factory grease). From the Certate up there is no smoother drag system on the market to protect 5lb fluoro - certainly not any carbon fiber "upgrade" that will stick on startup and slip unpredictably during a fight. These are things I experienced first hand, and I should just point out that if you've never fished high end Daiwas and Shimanos (actual high end, not a stradic upgraded with bearings), then your experience falls somewhat short on this topic.

This was the first trip out with my Certate a few years ago, and the first decent fish that tested its drag. It made an impression coming from the Theory/Stradic ci4 - so much so that I had to edit out a clip and show my friends just how smooth the drag was -

[MainelySmallmouth]

"I should just point out that if you've never fished high end Daiwas and Shimanos (actual high end, not a stradic upgraded with bearings), then your experience falls somewhat short on this topic."

This literally could be one of the most perplexing statements I have ever read in a forum. That somehow, if you don't fish an Exist or a Stella, you can have no opinion on spinning reel performance. That is nothing more than pure arrogance, as there are plenty of folks that can speak in-depth on spinning reel performance that have never owned a Stella or an Exist. I may not fish Stellas or Exists, but I do fish JDM spinning reels almost exclusively, because I prefer the shallow spool options that JDM reels come with that US reels don't. And all of my none Stella / Exist reels deliver fantastic drag performance, even after having the stock felt washers replaced with carbon fiber drag washers. To suggest that someone would fish with a reel with a component that would actually degrade the performance of the reel, or that Shimano and others would do the same, is just pure non-sense. Again, if felt drag washers work for you, that is awesome and keep on trucking. But I can tell you that all of my reels, including the one Certate I own, have all had the felt drag washers replaced with carbon fiber drag washers, and they handle fish just as smoothly as the reel in your video, from really light drag pressure all the way to lock down drag pressure. I guess I need to take some time to record my JDM reels allowing 5 lb smallies to peel off line from their buttery smooth drag systems to legitimize my point.