Auto Chart, Auto Chart Pro & Auto Chart Live Information Resource

[Robertl69]

Perhaps, but probably not by much. I think the AC Live produces contour information only, no additional info such as bottom hardness and such (which are only with the Pro version of the software).

Been thinking about this a lot last night and some this morning and think I actually have something to add that will make some of this make more sense; which is ironic given I started the latest rant here LOL.

I'm working on it now and will post sometime today, probably in a couple separate posts so its not quite as long and difficult to read.

What I will post MAY ALSO BE COMPLETELY INCORRECT so please be gentle, just trying to add to the discussion where I can.

[Robertl69]

Again, many things to confirm I think, but, my best understanding (from Wayne and others as well as some personal insight into contour mapping that I had failed to consider until late last night):

Both AC Live and AC PC (AutoChart Standard/Pro PC Software) use sonar data.

I strongly suspect AC Live uses only/mostly the basic depth data (and a simpler algorithm perhaps as well); it does this dynamically at the unit, takes that sonar data, makes its calculations and writes a MAP file, a Lake Master map file to be exact (according to sources).

For AC PC you first create the sonar recording - and this contains ALL the sonar information, which I gather also includes signal response strength and similar data that allows the algorithms on the AC PC to interpret additional information such as bottom hardness and such.

Once the sonar recording is made and written to an SD card (not a ZLC), it is loaded into the AC PC software which runs a likely more resource intensive set of algorithms to generate a MAP file, again a Lake Master map file to be exact (maybe slightly better contours due to more complex algorithms but doubt much as contour generation from a give set of point elevation data is not terrible complex by modern standards - I helped write some for Engineering back in the late 80's) with (and I am not sure if this is part of the Lake Master format or a supplement) additional data, at least in the case of the pro version, such as bottom hardness.

What is written in both these cases is a Lake Master Map file (but that is a little fuzzy, explain shortly). In the case of AC Live that is the only result, the sonar data has not been saved anywhere so you have the generated Map only. And based on the response from HB it is encoded/tagged/locked/whatever (lots of ways to do this) such that only another AC Live capable unit can use that file. The fuzzy part is that perhaps it is not a true LM Map file since it can't be read by just any LM compatible unit, or it is and is locked or whatever, not sure it matters.

In the case of AC PC, a true/non-coded/whatever Lake Master Map file is created. That can be used in any LM compatible unit I understand. I am also led to understand that AC PC will NOT simply read back in that data from the MAP card, for sure in the case of the AC Live created map card according to HB, and I think likely neither. - next post possibly some insight as to why....

[Robertl69]

That actually makes some sense in terms of license issues. If one could just read in LM map data and then write it back out to a ZLC one could create multiple copies of a licensed LM product; which given they own both and the ZLC's are pricey to begin with it actually might not be a bad idea for them I think but whatever.

Also, thinking about it, makes since from an algorithm standpoint too. Most of the better contour generation algorithms are not fully deterministic (non-reversible). That is, knowing point depth/elevation data (sonar data for instance) one can calculate a contour, but it is based on a best interpolation which takes into account many surround data points, per a specific algorithm (and there are several). What this means then is you can get contour data from the sonar data but you cannot derive the actual original sonar data from the contour data, only a representation of the sonar/point data could possibly be calculated.

Expanding on that further if the purpose was to continue to then add new sonar recording data each time to calculate a better and better map, a reverse derived representation of the last set of sonar data would each time increase the error in the next set of derived contour data (sometimes that error can work to make the contours more accurate to actual at a particular point but for most of the map, definitely not.

However, if each time a new set of sonar recordings is added to existing sets of sonar recordings and then the algorithms now run on yet more original actual data (rather than reversed derived) there is no additional error introduced and the final results will only get more and more accurate with more and more sonar recordings (assuming they are each done as correctly as possible of course).

Simplistic example; if you are asked what is the average speed of vehicles in a particular stretch of highway, you can calculate that based on 2 observed cars: one at 50 and one at 68 for an average of 59. You go back next week and watch 2 more cars and they are 70 and 82 lets say. If you use all four data points and simple average, the average is 67.5. If you use the 59 with a weight of one unit (since in our sonar case you don't know how many cars/data points were used to calculate that average, all you have is the result) you get a simple average of 70.3. You can easily extrapolate that to a much larger number of cars, etc. and see the error could be even much larger....or smaller, but no way to know - and I forget the math/statistics as to why but basically it works out that the VAST majority of the time it make it worse, or maybe that's Murphy's law not math. Take it one step further and get two more cars at 79 and 79. The actual average of all 6 cars would be 71.3 but if you again just used unit weight of one each time as you add more data, the avg would be 76.1, an even larger error.

I'd like to believe this is the main reason AC PC does not generate maps from a combination of maps and sonar data, but if one JUST used the map data to then reverse derive the input sonar data to then re-derive the map, it would be very close (NOT exactly the same however due to the type of math involved!). So it would seem clear that it is also based on licensing issues. Either way however, I do now feel that the way they are doing it is mostly to our benefit. That said, not sure how that can apply to a map created solely with AC live that one would like to copy to another card; but if it truly is an actual LM map card at that point perhaps it would open the door to people making illegal LM copies too and perhaps that is why.

Wow, I had long since forgotten most of that and now with Wayne's input and activating some long dormant memory cells.....it's actually starting to make sense......in my mind at least.

If I have misstated or not used the correct math terms I do apologize, it has been a long time!

And our last qualifier again: THIS MAY ALL BE WRONG/INCORRECT/BS.

[Tundah]

AC For the PC can import multiple file types as well and does its magic to export what is essentially a Lakemaster Card. I'm confident you are right about ACL only using the single depth variable in its mapping and from looking at my ZLC afterwards the file extension for the ACL map was new and different than maps created on the PC tool. I could probably view each of the files in hex and look for similarities and differences if not encrypted, but I think I'll go fishing this weekend instead lol!

[Robertl69]

That's interesting to know the file extension is different! I'm assuming still that the information I was given, that both are indeed 'Lake Master Maps', is still technically accurate; but it would appear at least that the one from AC Live is in a slightly different format (or maybe as simple as the extension was changed if indeed you can't change it after it is written). That makes ever more sense now as to why they are supposed to work only in other AC Live capable devices; not necessarily why they could not be made to work in others, I think that is marketing/sales motivated, but at least maybe why it does not work.

Thanks!

[Bob B]

Seems like they could at partially solve this by having Autochart Live also save the source data to the ZLC ..... and allow Autochart PC to access that source data. This would prevent the user from having to do this in 2 separate steps.

[caskey_b]

I am sure there is a definitive answer somewhere in here but can't seem to find it...

helix 10 with auto chart live... I plan on recording the pond I fish... Can I take the recorded sonar and load it onto a regular SD card? And do I need autochart PC to do this... Or for what I am wanting to do, can it all be performed on the Helix unit itself?

[Wayne P.]

I am sure there is a definitive answer somewhere in here but can't seem to find it...

helix 10 with auto chart live... I plan on recording the pond I fish... Can I take the recorded sonar and load it onto a regular SD card? And do I need autochart PC to do this... Or for what I am wanting to do, can it all be performed on the Helix unit itself?

IF not in the unit's memory, the data has to be on a Lakemaster Zero Line card.
Auto Chart Live can create up to 8 hours of contour mapping in the unit's memory. Then the data has to be loaded to a Zero Line card to use Auto Chart Live again.

If you want to record sonar logs to a regular memory card, the data would have to be processed by computer software (Auto Chart or Auto Chart Pro) and then copied to the Zero Line card to use it.

That gives you two ways to create Lakemaster contour mapping.

You can also use your recorded data on a regular memory card with Navionics Sonar Charts.

[Robertl69]

If you are just wanting a map of your pond on your unit and can blanket the pond with your sonar in less than an 8 hour period you can do all this within the unit with Autochart Live. If you later need to map other areas beyond that 8 hours you will need to purchase a zero line card. And if wanting more than just contours, or use on more than one unit then you will need the software as well as sonar logs (not the same thing as the map).

Sorry that's not very detailed but I am headed out the door and saw your post so wanted to shoot you a quick reply. Wayne, Doug, James and others will correct me if I am wrong here as they are a few of our experts; I'm just a newbie who bugged them for all this info recently.

[Robertl69]

LOL, as usual Wayne is already on it!

[caskey_b]

Wayne, Robert thank you...

I am guessing no more than 1 hr to map the pond... should leave me plenty of memory for other mapping.. if needed I get a zero lines card...

Thanks again!

[Tundah]

Good news update from HB:

" I do apologize for the delay on the information, however, we have been trying to duplicate what it is that you are trying to do. With what we have found out, we started a sonar recording and went to the Auto Chart live and started that recording and they both are recording at the same time. It didn't stop any of the recordings either. I hope this helps."

This seems to be the best solution for folks wanting to use both products, AC and ACL. It will require a second ZeroLines card to do, but I suppose it beats having to map a lake twice.

[Bob B]

Good news update from HB:

" I do apologize for the delay on the information, however, we have been trying to duplicate what it is that you are trying to do. With what we have found out, we started a sonar recording and went to the Auto Chart live and started that recording and they both are recording at the same time. It didn't stop any of the recordings either. I hope this helps."

This seems to be the best solution for folks wanting to use both products, AC and ACL. It will require a second ZeroLines card to do, but I suppose it beats having to map a lake twice.

This is not ideal, but at least there is a get around ..... now for someone on here to test it so we can verify.

[CamoHunter]

Boy, I've been gone from here for a while, and had some catching up to do.
Here's what I've gathered.

We already knew that AutoChart PC and AutoChart Live were different. AutoChart Live being the program on the actual depth finder that turns data into a map, while actually boating on the water. AutoChart & AutoChart Pro for the computer, need to import data in the form of Sonar Recordings or Humminbird Tracks, to create a map.

The problem with AutoChart Live, is that it is taking the data while boating live, and converting it into a map in the depth finder, which is great, HOWEVER, the problem with it is, once it turns the data into a map on the ZeroLines SD card, it purges the data that it used to create that map. Thus, making it impossible to copy that map to another ZeroLines SD card, or create another map using AutoChart on the computer.

As several of you have mentioned, there are a couple ways to set up multiple onix/helix units to be mapping from the same transducer and same GPS at the same time, essentially using AutoChart Live to create the same map on two ZeroLines SD cards (one in one depth finder, another in the other).

Still, in my mind, that's not a good method to use, because as I mentioned, all of the original data (Lat,Long,Depth) points are deleted once they're used in the depth finder to create the background depth map. AND, then you also do not have any of the data points to use in AutoChart on the computer.

AutoChart Live is nice for creating maps on the fly, on the water. But, I still think AutoChart and AutoChart Pro on the computer are the best for someone wanting to create multiple ZeroLines SD cards (map cards). And, you also have all of your data saved on the computer in for form of sonar recordings or hummingbird tracks for future use down the road.

With what we have found out, we started a sonar recording and went to the Auto Chart live and started that recording and they both are recording at the same time. It didn't stop any of the recordings either. I hope this helps."

This seems to be the best solution for folks wanting to use both products, AC and ACL. It will require a second ZeroLines card to do, but I suppose it beats having to map a lake twice.

Tundah, it doesn't require a second ZeroLines SD card to save sonar recordings. You can use any blank SD card to save sonar recordings, and transfer those recordings to your computer to use in AutoChart at home.
Humminbird suggested to start a sonar recording, and then start the AutoChart Live recording. That will certainly work, but also remember that you can import Humminbird Tracks into AutoChart on your computer. So, you wouldn't necessarily need sonar recordings, just saved Humminbird tracks, if you wanted to create maps using AutoChart on your home computer. Humminbird tracks are nice, because you don't need to have an SD card in your unit when you save the tracks, those are saved to internal memory until you export them from the unit. You export them from the depth finder to an SD card at any time after they're saved. The one negative of using Humminbird tracks, is that you cannot use them for Bottom Hardness or SideImaging mosaic layers. You do need sonar recordings for those in AutoChart.

For a person wanting to make multiple map cards (ZeroLines SD cards), I'd recommend still saving ALL hummingbird tracks or making sonar recordings, and using AutoChart Pro on your home computer. And developing a good storage solution to save all of your Data files on your computer. By having all of your data on your computer, there's essentially NO limit to the number of ZeroLines map cards you could create. So, if you have several friends all collecting data and working together, you could have all that data saved on one computer, and a single person updating dozens of ZeroLines map cards.

In my opinion, that is a big advantage over AutoChart Live, which only creates ONE map card, and if you want to create more than one, you either have to set up multiple depth finders to record to ZeroLines SD cards at the same time, OR remap the entire pond/lake if you want to create multiple map cards.



I know, that was pretty long winded...

[Bob B]

CamoHunter ... I think you are as well versed as anyone using these products ..... and I think everything you stated is spot on ..... except that I think Tundah was indicating the need for 2 ZLCs because you would need one to save the Autochart Live mapping and one to create the mapping for Autochart Pro.....It is true that the sonar recording wouldn't have to be initially saved to a ZLC.

I think Humminbird should change the names of one of the products since it is natural to assume they would be compatible being named virtually the same......It's kind of like if Autochart and Autochart Pro weren't compatible.

[CamoHunter]

Yeah, true. May need 2 ZLCs if that's what he was talking about. Good catch.

And kind of agree with you on the AutoChart naming. Pretty confusing to consumers having AutoChart, AutoChart Pro, and AutoChart LIVE. People asking questions might only be familiar with one of the products, and refer to it all as 'AutoChart'.


And, I guess I'm just fearful of ONLY using AutoChart LIVE for some of the reasons I mentioned. What if you lose the ZLC card you created the live mapping on? Or what if the card got corrupted somehow? You'd have to re-map the entire lake. For that reason alone, I'd make absolutely sure I was saving additional Tracks and Sonar Recordings, and storing those on my home computer, that I could use in AutoChart Pro on my computer.

[Bob B]

I think Autochart Live should save the source data automatically .....That would solve most of the issues. It would, however, probably use a lot more unit memory making it hard to do 8hrs of recording on the unit.

[CamoHunter]

8hrs is the mapping it can store internally. There is MUCH more storage on the ZLC.

And I agree with the source data part though. AutoChart Live should store the source data automatically to the ZLC when the ZLC is in the unit. People would still need to remove the source data (Sonar Recordings/Humminbird Tracks) from the ZLC from time to time to keep from filling up the ZLC storage, but at least they'd have the source data backed up on their computer.

[Darkhorse]

Hi Camo Hunter
I heard that if you had two ZLC and you recorded ACL on the one unit (onix) and then copied via PC onto the other ZLC that it works on the other onix? (IOW both ZLC have the same info on it) can any one confirm that this is possible.

[CamoHunter]

I find that unlikely (due to the encryption and protection against copying cards), but cannot confirm.

Wish I had a depthfinder with AutoChart Live, so I could run through some of these scenarios and have some answers to help you all more.