HVAC Question...Need advice on replacement options

[jasonb01]

I am replacing my entire system and have my first appointment tomorrow to get estimates. I am going to get at least 3 or 4 before making a decision.

What I currently have is original to the house which was built in 1976 (35 yrs old). My house is a brick, 1 story 1850 sq ft. It has (2) 3 ton units on it with natural gas heat. I want to tear it all out and replace it with one large unit for the entire house. I'm thinking 4 or 5 ton, but don't know for sure. I guess what I was wondering is are there any brands to definitely stay away from? I have appointments with a Rheem dealer, Trane dealer and a Carrier dealer. I just want a reliable, 10 year + warranty, 16 or so seer efficient unit with natural gas heat. What is a 2 stage vs. single stage? Which do I need? I have galvanized stiff ductwork in the attic. Should I tap on to the existing or just tear it all out and go with all new flexible duct? I would like to be around the $8000 or so mark if possible. I would even be willing to remove both of the units from the attic myself if that would save some cash. Any suggestions so I sound somewhat educated when I meet with these guys? Everything is so high tech, it's hard to find just a good plain air conditioner anymore. Also, does it help with these guys if you pay cash? Should I even mention that? I have been saving up and will pay cash for it, that's another reason I don't want to go overboard, trying to stay away from any type of financing if possible.

Thanks!

[slonezp]

IM sent

[southparks]

CARRIER, CARRIER, CARRIER!!!!!!! I work for them.

[Parrothead]

Call me--IM sent

[Parrothead]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by jasonb01 &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">I am replacing my entire system and have my first appointment tomorrow to get estimates. I am going to get at least 3 or 4 before making a decision.

What I currently have is original to the house which was built in 1976 (35 yrs old). My house is a brick, 1 story 1850 sq ft. It has (2) 3 ton units on it with natural gas heat. I want to tear it all out and replace it with one large unit for the entire house. I'm thinking 4 or 5 ton, but don't know for sure. I guess what I was wondering is are there any brands to definitely stay away from? I have appointments with a Rheem dealer, Trane dealer and a Carrier dealer. I just want a reliable, 10 year + warranty, 16 or so seer efficient unit with natural gas heat. What is a 2 stage vs. single stage? Which do I need? I have galvanized stiff ductwork in the attic. Should I tap on to the existing or just tear it all out and go with all new flexible duct? I would like to be around the $8000 or so mark if possible. I would even be willing to remove both of the units from the attic myself if that would save some cash. Any suggestions so I sound somewhat educated when I meet with these guys? Everything is so high tech, it's hard to find just a good plain air conditioner anymore. Also, does it help with these guys if you pay cash? Should I even mention that? I have been saving up and will pay cash for it, that's another reason I don't want to go overboard, trying to stay away from any type of financing if possible.

Thanks! </td></tr></table>

Just a few things....if you get a true 16 seer you will be paying A LOT more than 8k for 2 units. If the house has a 2nd level, i would not suggest consolidating into one unit. This would give you one thermostat and you would only have control over on level of the home (the level with the stat.) Remember, heat rises. If the stat is down stairs your upper floor will be unbearable in the summer.

I would pay cash for sure. It will cost more if you finance it. Keep in mind, they can put a 16 seer outdoor unit and a lower efficiency air handler and you no longer have a 16 seer system.

Just for some perspective-i know of one system that included a 2 ton, 16 seer unit with a ten year parts and labor warranty. This was the TOP of the line system but it did sale for more than 9k.

[fishnfool38]

Sorry to tell you $8000 is not going to touch it with 16 SEER variable speed.
They need to do a load calculation on your house not just a 500sqft per ton calculation, if your house needs 6 tons you can not do it with one system, 5 tons is the largest residential unit. To be honest if you have 6 tons in 1850 sq ft it must have 16' ceilings...a rough estimate with 8' ceilings I would say 3-3.5 tons with an 8' ceiling that is with 5 air changes per hour.
The metal duct you have if in good shape is far better than any flex...clean it, seal it, put a R-8 insulation on it.
I prefer Ruud/Rheem(I have been installing them for 20 years), Trane are great units, Carriers top of the line models are good. Regardless of brand a good installer can make a cheap system last, a bad installer can kill the best system available. So you are better off with a cheaper system with a good installer.
Do not go with the lowest bid unless you know someone who has used them and for references they can cherry pick who they give you!
I do quality work and will not bid against low ballers I had rather go home and cut the grass. I am higher than everyone around when people call me for a price I tell them up front, if they still are interested I go and get probably 90% of the bids.
And of the 10% I do not get 40% call back wanting me to repair a problem.

[fishnfool38]

I am on my phone so sorry about punctuation etc!!!

[jasonb01]

Ben, I just got back on and saw your IM. My house is only 1 floor (1850 square feet)and I currently have 2 a/c units, but I want to replace them and go with just 1 larger unit for the entire house. I don't know why they originally put 2 units in here to begin with when it was built and I don't want or think I need the added cost of having 2 units. I want the entire house to be the same temp anyway.

I was doing some reading on a few sites and it looks like I may need a 4 ton and I think with all the humidity in S. Louisiana, a 2 stage would be best for that, but I don't know how much $ that adds. I do want something good as I don't see myself ever moving from this place.

Cash is a must, not going to finance it, but I can only go maybe $9,000 tops. Is this do-able for this size unit? Should I try to negotiate the price down by offering cash or do most guys not care how they are paid? I'll pay them in 20's if they want.

Thanks!!

[jasonb01]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by fishnfool38 &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">Sorry to tell you $8000 is not going to touch it with 16 SEER variable speed.
They need to do a load calculation on your house not just a 500sqft per ton calculation, if your house needs 6 tons you can not do it with one system, 5 tons is the largest residential unit. To be honest if you have 6 tons in 1850 sq ft it must have 16' ceilings...a rough estimate with 8' ceilings I would say 3-3.5 tons with an 8' ceiling that is with 5 air changes per hour.
The metal duct you have if in good shape is far better than any flex...clean it, seal it, put a R-8 insulation on it.
I prefer Ruud/Rheem(I have been installing them for 20 years), Trane are great units, Carriers top of the line models are good. Regardless of brand a good installer can make a cheap system last, a bad installer can kill the best system available. So you are better off with a cheaper system with a good installer.
Do not go with the lowest bid unless you know someone who has used them and for references they can cherry pick who they give you!
I do quality work and will not bid against low ballers I had rather go home and cut the grass. I am higher than everyone around when people call me for a price I tell them up front, if they still are interested I go and get probably 90% of the bids.
And of the 10% I do not get 40% call back wanting me to repair a problem.
</td></tr></table>

Thanks for the reply. It is just 8' ceilings/1850 square feet. 3 br -2 bath. Nothing huge by any means. I have a buddy of mine with a very similar house that has 1 3-ton unit. I figure, at most, I will need a 4 ton.

I don't want to go with the lowest bidder, just don't want to get taken and blow the bank.

[fishnfool38]

4 tons in a "variable speed" will be beneficial to you. Different rates different areas but a guestimation would be $12k and could go higher.
Combining these 2 systems will be labor intense and may work out that you have to replace all the duct, sometimes its easier and cheaper.

[barchief]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by jasonb01 &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">

Thanks for the reply. It is just 8' ceilings/1850 square feet. 3 br -2 bath. Nothing huge by any means. I have a buddy of mine with a very similar house that has 1 3-ton unit. I figure, at most, I will need a 4 ton.

I don't want to go with the lowest bidder, just don't want to get taken and blow the bank.

</td></tr></table>

I am in South Louisiana as well, and have gotten estimates from different folks... I have prices from 3100 for a 3 ton 14 SEER (ArcoAire), 4350 for a 3 ton 16 SEER (Rheem), 4750 for a 3 ton 14 SEER (American Standard), to 5620 (crazy price)for a 2.5 ton 16 SEER (HEIL)

Keep in mind that I am keeping all my existing ductwork.

[jasonb01]

That's what I was thinking. That's why I think I can do it for 8k. Glad to hear rheem makes a good unit. I have a guy that lives about a mile from me that installs rheem. Waiting on an appointment time from him. I definitely need some duct work redone going from 2 to 1. Did u look into the 2 stage systems Cory? They look good for our humidity issues down here.

[Parrothead]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by fishnfool38 &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">4 tons in a "variable speed" will be beneficial to you. Different rates different areas but a guestimation would be $12k and could go higher.
Combining these 2 systems will be labor intense and may work out that you have to replace all the duct, sometimes its easier and cheaper. </td></tr></table>

agree. Be sure you ask the company if they have general liability insurance. If they say yes, request their insurance company send you a copy of the certificate. Anyone can make a copy of their certificate but they could have canceled their policy months ago. I, as with fishnfool, work for a company that prides ourselves in the quality of work and level of service. We will not price again a lot of low-ball guys. You need someone with experience to set up your system and to back it up over the coming years. You might have to bring your efficiency expectations down in order to meet your budget.

ALSO--PLEASE do NOT let someone sale you a R-22 unit at a discount. The EPA is making sure R-22 is gone in the next five years. It would be like trading your truck for a horse and buggy

[jasonb01]

Yeah, definitely don't want r22. 12k just not gonna happen. Might have to just go single stage. And I agree,I will prob need all new ducts. I also want to eliminate some of my ducts. I have toO many in this house that are unnecessary like in closets.

What about the ductwork? Is flex duct ok to use to save a little $? I would assume it its cheaper. I have had to repair the insulation on my current ductwork in the past.it didn't seen to stay on very well.

I appreciate it,I feel better informed for sure!!

[Parrothead]

Flex is cheaper but duct work in general is very expensive. Someone will have to do a load calculation and re-engineer the duct work. Your system relies on static pressure to efficiently cool your house. If that pressure is off, you will not be comfortable.

And when i say its expensive--i mean EXPENSIVE....

[fishnfool38]

Flex is ok if installed correctly, I am big into metal but use flex as well. I will not under any circumstance use duct board, not happening!
If you go single stage load calc is a must, an oversized system will not remove humidity properly.

[jasonb01]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by Parrothead &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">Flex is cheaper but duct work in general is very expensive. Someone will have to do a load calculation and re-engineer the duct work. Your system relies on static pressure to efficiently cool your house. If that pressure is off, you will not be comfortable.

And when i say its expensive--i mean EXPENSIVE....</td></tr></table>

Well damn, I never even thought that the ductwork would play that big into the price. Hell, I can buy ductwork at Lowes. 6 window units are starting to sound good right about now!

[fishnfool38]

Nobody understands the work involved in a changeout, alot of unforeseen stuff there if the job is done right. Yes you can go to Lowes buy the duct go cobble it up and maybe get by until about next week when your wife cuts you off because it is so hot and humid in the house or until your power bill comes in. Believe me I have seen some I am sure you could out do that was done by so called hvac contractors.
This is why we have to carry a pocket full of licenses so we know how to "properly" install. The sad part is that doesn't always give you a guarantee just because they have a license!
In case you haven't noticed I am harping on the installer it is for a reason. They're so many that has jumped into the business but maybe 10% actually know what they are doing, 40% enough to get by, The other 50% needs to go to work at lowes selling the duct your are looking at or greeting!

[barchief]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by jasonb01 &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">That's what I was thinking. That's why I think I can do it for 8k. Glad to hear rheem makes a good unit. I have a guy that lives about a mile from me that installs rheem. Waiting on an appointment time from him. I definitely need some duct work redone going from 2 to 1. Did u look into the 2 stage systems Cory? They look good for our humidity issues down here.</td></tr></table>

I didn't look into 2 stage systems, but I have never had humidity problems in the house before..

The unit I am getting a price on is for my upstairs... I replaced my downstairs unit about 3 years ago with a 16 SEER 4 Ton Rheem.

[jasonb01]

I get the installer needs to be good, but without references, how can you know? That is why I asked these questions.i'm not going to say anything to him, i'm going to let him do the talking and if he doesn't address things like a load test and not just cooling, but dealing with the humidity,I will move on to the next one. I'll definitely post what they offer on here before I sign anything. I really appreciate all the advice!!