Don, Redline

[esdbass]

It raises "Octane" but does it raise the BTU's of the fuel as well?

Jay had spoken about this about a year and half ago but it seems to have come up quite a lot recently any thoughts on the product for use in an XS ?

[EuropeanAM]

Eli.... I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about: But let's define "IT" for others that might read this....

[Largemouthlou]

I've used "IT" as well

[esdbass]

Yes Don, seems I left "It" out "It" is "Aces" and I'd love to hear Lou's results as well

[EuropeanAM]

Eli:

Thanks for clarifying the "Aces" product.

I know that Jay spoke very highly of it... and I certainly can't knock any product that I've not tried, or tested (simply put: insufficient data).

I would be very surprised if the BTU's of fuel INCREASED by using this product, since most "higher octane" fuels actually have LOWER BTU's.

As for using it in your XS, I would again say that there's just not sufficient data. If your question pertains to "octane loss" over the course of the winter... and using the Aces product to "regain" a couple octane points, that MIGHT be one thing.

Everyday use? Hmmmmnnnn.... I'd be inclined to stick with "appropriate octane pump fuel" for your XS (which only requires 91 octane).

Now for a "modded" engine with substantially higher compression, it might be a different scenario.

[esdbass]

Don: My understanding is that the BTU's dropped when ethanol was added to our gasoline available in most places in the US?

I'm not a chemist and I'm trying to understand why you can have 2 gasoline's, one with out ethanol at 91 Octane and another with ethanol at 91 Octane yet from what I was told the non ethanol gasoline has higher BTU's. I've read and I beleive it's common knowledge that cars running ethanol gasoline get lower MPG than with non ethanol gasoline of the same octane.

Regarding over winter gas storage, I'm done with that. Red drains the tank completely for me now for the past two years

[EuropeanAM]

You're correct on the "Ethanol vs Non-Ethanol" fuel (comparing two fuels of the same octane rating).

However, even with "non-ethanol" fuels.... "BTU's fall as octane increases". Higher octane fuels burn Slower and COOLER.

[esdbass]

OK Don I understand higher octane fuels burn cooler so how do you basically turn ethanol gas of lets say 91 octane higher in BTU rating with out increasing Octane?

If the Aces product increases octane, it decreases BTU's in doing so? My confusion is Non Ethanol gas of a given octane has more BTU's than Ethanol gas of the same octane so how would you increase the BTU's of the ethanol gas with out increasing the octane? AV gas or Race gas has a both higher BTU ratings and octane ratings than ethanol supper right?

[John Jackson]

BTU's alone don't regulate power. Higher octane usually does have less BTU's, but with higher compression and/or more timing, it is making more efficient use of the BTU's available. (Higher combustion and thermal efficiency). The efficiency increase is a higher % than the BTU loss. (If everything is optimized for both compression ratio's, 11:1 makes about 10% more power than 8:1).

[esdbass]

John: Let me simplify my question here. In the Pre Ethanol gas days a car motor or my boat motor would get more power and mileage from a given octane gas.

Can an additive like Aces gain back that power? and if not what can?

[EuropeanAM]

I agree with John here.... BTU ratings alone don't account for "all" of your power gain (or loss). It's balancing act of Octane Rating, Butane Rating, Compression Ratio, and timing (among other things).

The fact is.... our fuels aren't what they used to be.... and they never will be again. The only things you could really "add" the the fuel (in an effort to recreate the "fuels of yesterday") would, in essense, be the very compounds that were removed (or something VERY similar).

I don't see that happening......

And this isn't the first time in my career that "major fuel changes" have caused havoc on performance and longevity.... back in the 84-85 era when lead was removed almost entirely from fuel, we were retrofitting valves/stems/guides and seats like they were going out of style!

Be thankful that at least there IS fuel that is at least "remotely" suitable for your engine.... back then, there just weren't many options!

As for the Aces product questions.... I'd recommend either testing it "real world" yourself, or enlisting the experience of someone who HAS utilized the product over a long-term.

[1outlaw]

Ok say you added SOME of what was lost like leaded fuel and a higher octane????....Wouldnt you in essence gain alittle bit better quality fuel???

[esdbass]

Jason: I'm sure you know lead was taken out years ago, MBTE was taken out recently and Ethanol used in it's place. I'm not sure what else was taken out.

"Quality"? I mean higher BTU fuel at a given octane is that what you mean by "quality" becuase regular pump gas with the "Cocktail of additives" is a more "quality fuel" than with out but I don't think the BTU's are increased?

Running race fuel with lead in it mixed with regular pump gas increases the octane of the combined fuels but does nothing to address ethanol related phase separation, moisture absorbency, and deposit issues of the ethanol gas you are mixing with it. Maybe using the Race gas, with regular pump gas AND the stabilizing and cleaning additives is the optimum approach?

[1outlaw]

Thats what we are doing Eli!!!!
A ratio of 110 leaded race fuel, quick kleen or ring free and seafoam.

[esdbass]

Jason: OK glad we were on the same path. I'm a bit concerned about running a fuel with "lead" in it as it may not be sensor friendly at all in some of the DFI motors but your motor is EFI not DFI and Blair I'm sure is running whatever Wayne thinks is best for that motor. The DFI of the Merc and Yamaha's are different in that the Merc's use the compressor to introduce a pre mixed fuel and air to the cylinders while in the Yamaha the fuel is directly injected with out the compressor pre mix.

You need to still add a "fuel stabilizer" like Marine Stabil or Merc fuel Stabil to your mix becuase the regular pump gas is not being adequately treated in the mixture you have outlined. I know you guys run through a lot of fuel but in the Fla high humidity environment you guys are in I think you'd be a little safer adding a real solid fuel stabilizer as well, it would be cheap insurance, the gas these days is so bad an varies so much in alcohol content that given you go to the effort of running race fuel adding the stabil as well only seems to make sense

[1outlaw]

That would be redundant as we are already adding seafoam
Fuel NEVER sits in any of the 3 boats more then 1 week...Its taken out and ran in our vehicles if the boat sits more then a week
I really dont think theres anything to be gained by running our paticular cocktail if your motor requires only 87.....Our motors have higher compression and require 93 at a min.

BTW all gas is tested at the gas station to find lowest ethanol content....We know where those stations are and use those.

[dan896]

it is my understanding that you only benifit from a higher octane fuel if the engine is designed for it as the higher octane actualy burns slower allowing you to advance the timing and run a higher compresion without detenation am i on the right track ? the advancement of the timing allows you to build higher cyclinder pressure resulting in more power so if this is true how much does the btu content of the fuel effect it and how can it be compensated for

[esdbass]

Jason: Seafoam has some stabil in it but not enough in my opinion unless you are using a lot of it. It's great to add to a stabil and quickclean product in the "cocktail" but by itself in minimum quantities it's not sufficient as a true stabilizing agent.

I agree about the minimum Octane required to see a benefit from your fuel mixture but I think the combo you are running with the addition of a real stabilizer to address the pump gas ethanol content is pretty optimal

[esdbass]

Dan: Your absolutely right about what you are saying BUT I'm trying to figure out how to make a fuel with the same BTU rating as the previous MBTE gasoline we ran with out raising the octane in the process?????

[dan896]

eli i think that would require a very large chemistry set i gues my question is if the mbte ga shad more btu value wich would give you a higher cylinder pressure can you raise the compression slightly to get you back where you where and how much does the btu value change effect the over all mout put of the engine