I agree. This has gone off the original intent.
the original question was not CAN we achieve unity. But rather is unity desirable - something to pray and strive after. Or is the variety good in some way - does it in some way strengthen the body of Christ?
Our faith isn’t perfect. If we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could move mountains. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t emulate what Jesus does and strive for His level of faith.Originally Posted by 1Holeshot
By the way, I love your last two thoughts. I definitely don’t want to offend anyone here. This all comes from love, sharing of our beliefs, and strengthening each other in our love for Christ. I would happily pray for any of you and your intentions, and I would not be too proud to ask you for the same!
Wow! This is a great thread and a busy one. It is a blessing to see people passionate about their faith and discussing topics that are not easily understood (at least by me) and can stir up some emotion. I appreciate your patience as I attempt to muddle through what will likely be a long post…
Drifter106 - Ascribing the victory of the Holy League over the Muslim Turks to the unbiblical and man-made practice of praying to a deceased (albeit alive in Christ as the Bible says as you correctly pointed out in another post) human being- an act of obedience and worship that should go to God and God alone - is akin to smoking cigarettes while running on a tread mill and giving credit to the cigarettes for the weight loss. It is anecdotal. The rosary does contain Biblically grounded theology, despite being polluted with the unbiblical, man-made practice of praying to a passed away human being who has been blasphemously elevated to the level of deity. The article you linked in the other thread about the battle says the following:
”In 1571, Pope Pius V instituted “Our Lady of Victory” as an annual feast of thanksgiving for Mary’s patronage in the victory of the Holy League over the Muslim Turks in the battle of Lepanto.”
So it was a human being’s patronage that swayed the battle and therefore receives the praise? Heresy. The battle was won because it was God’s will. The rosary begins with the Apostles’ Creed - of which, is rooted in solid Biblical theology. Next is the Our Father prayer, the prayer Jesus gave us directly when teaching us to pray. Within the Our Father is our asking for “His will to be done” and to “deliver us from evil.” Those two obedient acts, the profession of faith and prayer, are the treadmill. The idolatry of praying to Mary is the cigarettes. Furthermore, after God delivered the Holy League to victory, the religious leader of the day decided it is best to create a feast of thanksgiving to a powerless human being. The feast did not celebrate God delivering the victory, but celebrated what is no different than the erroneous belief that somehow the tail wagged the dog.
Mary is not a woman who lives next door or sits in a nearby pew. One cannot draw a parallel between asking a living human being to go to God in prayer and pray for you (which is 100% Biblical) and the process by which one has to petition a human being on the other side of death. The Catholic Church, does a lot of things right, but this is not one of them. Is this my opinion, certainly not. I am a long-winded, rambling fool. I can only point to the authority that comes from the Word of God. The act of praying to Mary (yes, it is an act of prayer that is being whitewashed as just “asking”) with the belief she can somehow, like God, hear and comprehend billions of simultaneous prayers in hundreds of languages, and then it is her intercession that causes God to act is not only unbiblical, it is extremely dangerous.
Many versus in the Bible, the Word of God and only source of Christian authority as we cannot stand on the traditions of man, teach us how to pray, show others in obedient prayer and warn us of the danger of worshiping anyone other than God. He disciples chastised people who tried to worship them. Angels quickly admonished men for giving them reverence and worshiping them as well. Catholicculture.com defines worship as, “Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position.” Praying to Mary is an act of worship. Having feasts in her honor is as act of worship. Statues, candles with her image, etc… idolatry. If such a prominent practice within the Catholic Church held any weight, Jesus would have instructed us to pray in that manner - Jesus could have told us if you really want Him to move, to ask His mother to ask Him to do it… Peter, Paul, and John never mentioned it either, nor did any of their prayers go to anyone but God.
Again, I believe the Catholic Church gets many things right. I believe the Protestant churches get many things wrong. To come full circle, this is one of the many reasons the church will not be catholic (a word derived from Latin and Greek meaning “universal” or “whole”) because of issues such as these. If all man-made institutions of Christian worship disappeared over night and all that was left was the Bible, would all be lost? Or would we have an unclouded and fresh look at the gospel and realize we are inconsequential and that salvation is solely the work of Jesus Christ, and Christ alone?
The very first act of Mary’s intercession is indeed in the Bible. John 2
likewise the Hail Mary is extremely biblical. It quotes two different passages and then asks Mary to pray for us now and at our death.
To paraphrase St Maximilian Kolbe - don’t be afraid of loving Mary too much. You will never love her as much as Jesus did.
Wow! Post of the week if not the entire year.
I know some will find it offensive, both Catholic and Protestant; but we will know the Truth and the Truth will set us free.
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When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
Don't let this go to head, but I feel like I just ate a big meal. Thanks for diving deep into things.
Thank you for the kind words, but I cannot stress enough how it is God’s Word that sheds light on a subject, not the clumsy effort of man. We can only point to the truth.
John 2, the story of Mary asking Jesus to do something to solve what was certainly an unimportant (in contrast to what Jesus was on earth to do) human problem - the party simply ran out of wine. Jesus did the heavy lifting and turned water into wine. I wonder if the disciples thought about holding a feast in Mary’s honor for her patronage which lead to the victory over sobriety? If we are to accept the out of context meaning of John 2 and apply that elsewhere in the Bible then we need to pray to many others as well. Exodus 32:9-14, Moses asked God to spare the Israelites who angered God by worshiping the golden calf. Do we worship Moses for his intercession (which there were many more attributed to him)? Genesis 18:16-32, Abraham intercedes and pleads for the righteous in Sodom. Do we worship Abraham for his intercession? Luke 7:3, the centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant. Do we worship the Centurion for his intercession? These are just a few of the versus in the Bible that illustrate someone asking God to help another, none of which get ascribed the magnificent amount of worship that is attributed to Mary for asking Jesus to solve a beverage problem. Why is that? Why has man in the name of the church deviated from the Bible and created this heresy? Why not ask my deceased Uncle Jim to intercede and to pray to Jesus for us? Why can I not ask Uncle Jim to pray? It is because of men within a religious structure have elevated a sinful human being to the level of a deity in direct opposition to God’s commands in His Word. Man created praying to and the worshiping of Mary. Mary, who was blessed to be the woman who birthed Jesus, was sinner like me. A human being in need of a mighty savior. A person who was indeed blessed, but not made for worship because of that blessing any more than those Jesus called blessed because they believe and have not seen. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are the meek.
Again, the quoting of scripture is the treadmill. Praying to Mary is the cigarettes. As you stated, “It [the hail Mary] quotes two different passages and then asks Mary to pray for us now and at our death.” Citing scripture before an unbiblical act in no way sanctifies a practice that stands in opposition to the Word of God. When Jesus was tempted by Satan, Satan quoted scripture then asked Jesus to do something that was against God’s Word. Was Satan’s unbiblical requests righteous because he quoted scripture first?
Here is an example of your "strife" we have been talking about. Making up things like they didn't know where the sun went at night or germs? Really rex? :) ridiculous assertion my friend
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Great thread guys. Brings to mind Jesus' final prayer for the disciples and other who would follow, prior to His crucifixion
John 17:20“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21that they all may be one, asYou, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.22And theglory which You gave Me I have given them,that they may be one just as We are one:23I in them, and You in Me;that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me
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Mike
Just giving you a heads up, rex will not be replying to your post or any other, though I did gave him plenty of chances to amend his ways, and I pray that now we can have some sensible conversations without meaningless replies.
Thank you for your understanding.
Frank
You who are against asking for intercession from the saints; do you believe that the saints can offer prayers to Christ? Or because they are deceased their journey is over and their ability to pray has passed?
I think we probably almost completely agree except that some try to redefine what Catholics believe as WORSHIPPING the saints, but nothing could be farther from the truth. That would be polytheism.
Christ and Christ alone brings salvation.
Prayers to the saints are asking for their intercession. Feast Days, statues, etc remind us of how they lived their life and bolster us in our journey to Christ. This is what the Catholic Church teaches. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed or lying.
Though Paul defines saints as all how believe in God the Father and Jesus the Christ son of God, I don't believe that anyone can definitely say whether or not those who have passed can pray for us, though we as 'saints' by Paul's opinion can pray to Christ.
Can one ask the saints, by catholic definition, to pray to Christ for us? in my opinion, it is no deferent than asking any believer to pray for us according to our need within the will of God, since it is based on a religious tradition.
If the archangels, which are a little lower than Christ, they prevented and rejected anyone to pray to them, Why do you believe that praying to the saints is permissible before God? since you have just stated that it would be polytheistic, which it would be against God.
Is there a way to further shed some clarity on this matter? or should be attributed to agree to disagree based on traditional believes.
I will close my argument with this:
Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 969 (Not scripture):
“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the tiles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
1 John 2:1 “….and if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;”
John 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper that He may be with you forever;”
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
[QUOTE=titanxt;13184534]I will close my argument with this:
Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 969 (Not scripture):
“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the tiles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
1 John 2:1 “….and if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;”
John 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper that He may be with you forever;”
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”[/]
I’m so glad that you read the Catechism. It is a beautiful book that refers to scripture often. But you did forget to include the very next line:
“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men … flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”
The words of man versus the Word of God. May the reader decide.
Who decided the Bible was the word of God? I’m not disputing that it is…. But who did?
At the time of Jesus and the apostles, the question of what constitutes ‘the Scriptures’ was basically settled of what Christians call the Old Testament containing the same material as the Hebrew Bible – the Scriptures of Jesus's day, which He taught from many of times. The Hebrew Bible contains 24 scrolls. The Christian OT divides several of these up, giving us a total of 39 books.
Notice how Jesus refers to the Scriptures as ‘the Law and the Prophets’ (Matthew 5:17) or ‘the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms’ (Luke 24:44).
The early church recognized what was ‘God-inspired Scripture’. A key part of this was whether the texts had been written by an apostle or someone very closely associated with apostles (Mark and Luke). We don’t know who wrote Hebrews, but its contents are in line with the apostles’ teaching. The early church sensed God’s authority in these 66 texts and not others.
Much more important, however, is that the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing of these texts also confirmed to the church that they had divine authority. The 66 books of the Bible are the word of God, not because some church council decided they were, but because the Holy Spirit guided the church to treasure them above all other writings and to accept the authority of God himself speaking through them.
BTW, during the European Reformation, Martin Luther included the apocryphal books between the Old and New Testaments, though he did not include them in the table of contents and gave them the title ‘Apocrypha'. These Books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are 'useful and good to read’ according to Luther.
Last edited by digthemup; 09-29-2023 at 01:04 PM. Reason: spelling
God - God breathed, and God inspired. I know the argument that is next up - the Catholic Church (man) decided the canonicity of the books of the Bible and therefore, the church (man) brought the Bible to the world. We must be careful with that type of thinking as it is not man who decides what Words were God’s Word, but God alone. God’s Word existed long before man signed off on the Word’s authority.
Digthemup - Very well worded and supported argument. Had I seen your reply prior to submitting the above, I would have just sat back, as you nailed it.
That sounds like a beautiful Tradition.
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