Christian Unity?

[digthemup]

Totally agree....the thing is...they won't be saved because of their own doing.

John
I believe that there is no one in this forum that believes that you can be saved by your own doing, since I believe that we can all agree that only by Christ we can only be saved, and by His blood on that cross our sins are forgiven.
I believe that you and I have had some very interesting discussions about Mary, who I have made it clear that I honor her for being our Savior's mother especially for being there until the very end at the foot of the cross.
God calls her blessed and she will be blessed for all times, hence Christ only gives one command to John and Mary to take care of one another before He gives up the ghost.
Do you believe that Christ assigned any thing further? for if that is the case, I would love to read about it.

Frank

[drifter106]

John
I believe that there is no one in this forum that believes that you can be saved by your own doing, since I believe that we can all agree that only by Christ we can only be saved, and by His blood on that cross our sins are forgiven.
I believe that you and I have had some very interesting discussions about Mary, who I have made it clear that I honor her for being our Savior's mother especially for being there until the very end at the foot of the cross.
God calls her blessed and she will be blessed for all times, hence Christ only gives one command to John and Mary to take care of one another before He gives up the ghost.
Do you believe that Christ assigned any thing further? for if that is the case, I would love to read about it.

Frank

Probably should have written it differently Frank....let me correct myself so I don't leave the wrong impression.

They won't attain salvation because of the choices that they make. Agree...one cannot save themselves.

[GPtimes2]

The concern I have for non-Catholics is their opinion of the BVM. They chose to ignore the fact of what she represents. Yes, we Christians believe in the Trinity and that Jesus died for our sins but many are gonna miss the boat because of the arrogance and disrespect they inherently display towards the mother of God.

Can you elaborate on, "miss the boat"?

[fishinFamily]

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Was Jesus's body broken for us at the cross? absolutely, for flesh was torn and nails were driven into Him, and we shall remember this when we celebrate communion.
Was Christ's blood shed on the cross as an atonement of His new testament? so that our sins will be forever forgiven as far as East is from the West, absolutely, and we shall remember this when we partake of the cup at communion.
BTW, I was in no way implying that you had not previously read John 6, but to revisit it within the context of our discussion, which sometimes may give us a different view of our prospective.
The people are seeking free food, not spiritual truth. As soon as Jesus begins to explain that His miracles are only meant to teach, they lose interest. Christ will describe how material things fade away, but His real purpose is to give people eternal life.
“I am the bread of life,” Jesus tells the people. “Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.” He is offering the people himself. He is the imperishable bread that nourishes and sustains imperishable life. Jesus makes us the same offer in His New Covenant of bread and wine.

Thank you so very much for stoking the fire which burns withing me for my Lord Christ.
Frank

Frank,

Thank you for sharing your interpretation of the Word.

I have a question - do you believe at the last supper Jesus offered the apostles his body and blood? Or was he just referring forward to his sacrifice on the cross?

I believe Jesus is the lamb of the new Passover - the unblemished offering. In Exodus 12 the Israelites were instructed not just to sacrifice the lamb but to also consume its flesh.

I cherish that we can re-present that perfect sacrifice of Jesus, once for all.

I would also invite anyone to go to a Catholic Church and spend some time in the Adoration Chapel asking Jesus if He is truly present in the Eucharist.

In the end I believe we all love Christ and cherish His love in our life. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you!

Bill

[fishinFamily]

John
I believe that there is no one in this forum that believes that you can be saved by your own doing, since I believe that we can all agree that only by Christ we can only be saved, and by His blood on that cross our sins are forgiven.
I believe that you and I have had some very interesting discussions about Mary, who I have made it clear that I honor her for being our Savior's mother especially for being there until the very end at the foot of the cross.
God calls her blessed and she will be blessed for all times, hence Christ only gives one command to John and Mary to take care of one another before He gives up the ghost.
Do you believe that Christ assigned any thing further? for if that is the case, I would love to read about it.

Frank

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I believe the reason the Gospel of John refers to “The disciple whom he loved” because Christ loved all of us. In a way it puts us in the story.

So, while Jesus was telling John and Mary to take care of each other I believe he was also giving us Mary as our mother and as a powerful advocate to intercede for us in front of her Son and against the evil one. She will strike at the head of the evil one while he will strike at her heel.

[titanxt]

In three pages of a very interesting thread, we have quickly illustrated why there will not be a single, unified “church” until Christ’s singular return to collect His body of believers. All things have, and will for eternity, continue to be centered on Christ and all of this deification of this person or the belief that a particular religious structure was the best, etc., will be utter foolishness. Christ’s unimaginable glory will crush everything that men might think they had a hand in adding to, or assisting with, the work that was done by Christ and Christ alone.

[digthemup]

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I believe the reason the Gospel of John refers to “The disciple whom he loved” because Christ loved all of us. In a way it puts us in the story.

So, while Jesus was telling John and Mary to take care of each other I believe he was also giving us Mary as our mother and as a powerful advocate to intercede for us in front of her Son and against the evil one. She will strike at the head of the evil one while he will strike at her heel.

I believe that John felt that he was closer to Jesus in some way, and it does show in how he portrays himself throughout his gospel and the other books. As for Mary being an advocate to intercede on our behalf, I believe that is Christ's position to intercede for us to the Father when the accuser of the brethren comes before Him to accuse us. Christ sits at the right hand of God, which is where God placed Him for that very purpose.
In my opinion, by bringing Jesus forth as God in human form, Mary crushed the head of the evil one. It is not the woman who conquers but her seed, Christ. Second, it sets the conditions by which God will redeem His people from their sin.

[fishinFamily]

I believe that John felt that he was closer to Jesus in some way, and it does show in how he portrays himself throughout his gospel and the other books. As for Mary being an advocate to intercede on our behalf, I believe that is Christ's position to intercede for us to the Father when the accuser of the brethren comes before Him to accuse us. Christ sits at the right hand of God, which is where God placed Him for that very purpose.
In my opinion, by bringing Jesus forth as God in human form, Mary crushed the head of the evil one. It is not the woman who conquers but her seed, Christ. Second, it sets the conditions by which God will redeem His people from their sin.

When we have special intentions we ask strangers on bass fishing website to pray for us. Why wouldn’t we even more so want to ask the Blessed Mother and all the saints to pray for us as well?

[titanxt]

FishingFamily,

PLEASE forgive me for this, as I do not wish to create any dissection or argument between anyone on this forum… but praying to anyone other than God is wrong. Noah did not pray to Adam for intercession. Moses did not pray to Abraham for intercession. Jesus prayed to ONLY the Father and did not, as He was also fully man, pray to any other man that proceeded Him in death. This belief predicates on the improper deification of the one to whom you are praying. Mary was greatly blessed to have been chosen to be the woman to give birth to Jesus. What an honor it would have been for both Mary and Joseph to have been in Jesus’ presence for decades. They were very special indeed. Not because they were special, it was solely because Jesus was special. Mary and Joseph were sinful people in need of a savior the same as you and I. Now that they have passed, they can do nothing for our salvation. Only through the work of Jesus Christ alone can we be saved. No one else gets to whisper our prayers to Him on our behalf. It is not biblically supported theology. Mary, because she birthed Jesus, did not crush the head of the snake. Jesus and Jesus alone, crushed the head of the snake. Using the argument that Mary was responsible for the crushing of the snake’s head because she bore Jesus could be extended to Mary’s parents. Maybe it was Mary’s parents who crushed the head of the snake because they gave birth to the woman who would birth the man who would crush the snake’s head….

One might argue that they are not “praying” to Mary, but “through prayer I am asking her to….” Either way, it is prayer and prayer is between us and God alone. Jesus is our advocate and He intercedes on our behalf, as He and He alone is Holy and worthy to advocate to God. It is a causal fallacy to say that since we are instructed through God’s Word to pray and join others in prayer that we should therefore do something that was never shown to be in God’s Word because we think there is commonality. These practices have come through man, not through God’s Word.

[fishinFamily]

FishingFamily,

PLEASE forgive me for this, as I do not wish to create any dissection or argument between anyone on this forum… but praying to anyone other than God is wrong. Noah did not pray to Adam for intercession. Moses did not pray to Abraham for intercession. Jesus prayed to ONLY the Father and did not, as He was also fully man, pray to any other man that proceeded Him in death. This belief predicates on the improper deification of the one to whom you are praying. Mary was greatly blessed to have been chosen to be the woman to give birth to Jesus. What an honor it would have been for both Mary and Joseph to have been in Jesus’ presence for decades. They were very special indeed. Not because they were special, it was solely because Jesus was special. Mary and Joseph were sinful people in need of a savior the same as you and I. Now that they have passed, they can do nothing for our salvation. Only through the work of Jesus Christ alone can we be saved. No one else gets to whisper our prayers to Him on our behalf. It is not biblically supported theology. Mary, because she birthed Jesus, did not crush the head of the snake. Jesus and Jesus alone, crushed the head of the snake. Using the argument that Mary was responsible for the crushing of the snake’s head because she bore Jesus could be extended to Mary’s parents. Maybe it was Mary’s parents who crushed the head of the snake because they gave birth to the woman who would birth the man who would crush the snake’s head….

One might argue that they are not “praying” to Mary, but “through prayer I am asking her to….” Either way, it is prayer and prayer is between us and God alone. Jesus is our advocate and He intercedes on our behalf, as He and He alone is Holy and worthy to advocate to God. It is a causal fallacy to say that since we are instructed through God’s Word to pray and join others in prayer that we should therefore do something that was never shown to be in God’s Word because we think there is commonality. These practices have come through man, not through God’s Word.

How is it different for me to ask Mary to pray for me than it is for me to ask you to pray for me?

Unless you don’t believe in everlasting life? Or you don’t believe Mary was saved?

[drifter106]

FishingFamily,

PLEASE forgive me for this, as I do not wish to create any dissection or argument between anyone on this forum… but praying to anyone other than God is wrong. Noah did not pray to Adam for intercession. Moses did not pray to Abraham for intercession. Jesus prayed to ONLY the Father and did not, as He was also fully man, pray to any other man that proceeded Him in death. This belief predicates on the improper deification of the one to whom you are praying. Mary was greatly blessed to have been chosen to be the woman to give birth to Jesus. What an honor it would have been for both Mary and Joseph to have been in Jesus’ presence for decades. They were very special indeed. Not because they were special, it was solely because Jesus was special. Mary and Joseph were sinful people in need of a savior the same as you and I. Now that they have passed, they can do nothing for our salvation. Only through the work of Jesus Christ alone can we be saved. No one else gets to whisper our prayers to Him on our behalf. It is not biblically supported theology. Mary, because she birthed Jesus, did not crush the head of the snake. Jesus and Jesus alone, crushed the head of the snake. Using the argument that Mary was responsible for the crushing of the snake’s head because she bore Jesus could be extended to Mary’s parents. Maybe it was Mary’s parents who crushed the head of the snake because they gave birth to the woman who would birth the man who would crush the snake’s head….

One might argue that they are not “praying” to Mary, but “through prayer I am asking her to….” Either way, it is prayer and prayer is between us and God alone. Jesus is our advocate and He intercedes on our behalf, as He and He alone is Holy and worthy to advocate to God. It is a causal fallacy to say that since we are instructed through God’s Word to pray and join others in prayer that we should therefore do something that was never shown to be in God’s Word because we think there is commonality. These practices have come through man, not through God’s Word.

Based on your line of thought, insofar as intercessions is considered......explain how the Turks were defeated by the Christians? Remember, they prayed the rosary....everyone....because at that time in history you were either Catholic, Muslim or Pagan. They prayed their rosary's asking Mary to intercede to Jesus to help in the conflict. Very simple to understand unless you don't want to understand the events.

[titanxt]

How is it different for me to ask Mary to pray for me than it is for me to ask you to pray for me?

Unless you don’t believe in everlasting life? Or you don’t believe Mary was saved?

The difference is simply praying to the dead is useless and unbiblical. You can ask me to pray for you and I surely will. There is no Biblical evidence that Mary, or anyone else who has preceded us in death can hear our prayers and then pray for us. Jesus taught us to pray and frequently encourage us to boldly bring our prayers to God in His name. The problem lies in the method in which one tries to get Mary to intercede. You are praying to Mary - or at least trying to talk to her through prayer - giving her reverence that only belongs to God and God alone. It is not Biblical and stands in contrast to the Word of God in which we are to pray to Him and to Him alone and not to exalt or deify anyone else. Good theology stands on the Word of God. I have very close friends who are Mormon. They often rebuttal with "What is wrong with _____?", and "Wouldn't God want _________________ because of ___________?" and not cite a single verse in the Bible to support their behavior or beliefs. Show me where in God's Word are we to pray to anyone but God or to ask the dead to do something through our act of praying.

I think my short time here has clearly illustrated that I believe in eternal life bought for us by Jesus and Jesus alone. Though I cannot judge who will be saved or not, I have a strong suspicion that Mary placed her faith in Jesus.

[drifter106]

The difference is simply praying to the dead is useless and unbiblical.

Mary, The Blessed Virgin Mary, is not dead. If you were aware of the apparitions they she has been in and recorded in history, you would know she is not dead.

[fishinFamily]

The difference is simply praying to the dead is useless and unbiblical. You can ask me to pray for you and I surely will. There is no Biblical evidence that Mary, or anyone else who has preceded us in death can hear our prayers and then pray for us. Jesus taught us to pray and frequently encourage us to boldly bring our prayers to God in His name. The problem lies in the method in which one tries to get Mary to intercede. You are praying to Mary - or at least trying to talk to her through prayer - giving her reverence that only belongs to God and God alone. It is not Biblical and stands in contrast to the Word of God in which we are to pray to Him and to Him alone and not to exalt or deify anyone else. Good theology stands on the Word of God. I have very close friends who are Mormon. They often rebuttal with "What is wrong with _____?", and "Wouldn't God want _________________ because of ___________?" and not cite a single verse in the Bible to support their behavior or beliefs. Show me where in God's Word are we to pray to anyone but God or to ask the dead to do something through our act of praying.

I think my short time here has clearly illustrated that I believe in eternal life bought for us by Jesus and Jesus alone. Though I cannot judge who will be saved or not, I have a strong suspicion that Mary placed her faith in Jesus.

Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah…. I’m not sure what he said, but He didn’t seem to think it was worthless.

[1Holeshot]

The difference is simply praying to the dead is useless and unbiblical. You can ask me to pray for you and I surely will. There is no Biblical evidence that Mary, or anyone else who has preceded us in death can hear our prayers and then pray for us. Jesus taught us to pray and frequently encourage us to boldly bring our prayers to God in His name. The problem lies in the method in which one tries to get Mary to intercede. You are praying to Mary - or at least trying to talk to her through prayer - giving her reverence that only belongs to God and God alone. It is not Biblical and stands in contrast to the Word of God in which we are to pray to Him and to Him alone and not to exalt or deify anyone else. Good theology stands on the Word of God. I have very close friends who are Mormon. They often rebuttal with "What is wrong with _____?", and "Wouldn't God want _________________ because of ___________?" and not cite a single verse in the Bible to support their behavior or beliefs. Show me where in God's Word are we to pray to anyone but God or to ask the dead to do something through our act of praying.

I think my short time here has clearly illustrated that I believe in eternal life bought for us by Jesus and Jesus alone. Though I cannot judge who will be saved or not, I have a strong suspicion that Mary placed her faith in Jesus.

titanxt I agree with you on both post 49 and post 52.

Very solid explanations.

[digthemup]

When we have special intentions we ask strangers on bass fishing website to pray for us. Why wouldn’t we even more so want to ask the Blessed Mother and all the saints to pray for us as well?

Bill,
"Why wouldn’t we even more so want to ask the Blessed Mother and all the saints to pray for us as well?" This changes the entire point, since what I believe you are saying here is totally different than praying to Mary and the saints, instead they are to pray for us to God the Father.
Please correct me if my perception of the above is incorrect.
Thank so much
Frank

[drifter106]

Bill,
"Why wouldn’t we even more so want to ask the Blessed Mother and all the saints to pray for us as well?" This changes the entire point, since what I believe you are saying here is totally different than praying to Mary and the saints, instead they are to pray for us to God the Father.
Please correct me if my perception of the above is incorrect.
Thank so much
Frank

Exactly!!!!!

Who better to ask for prayers than someone in heaven or better yet....Mary, the mother of God.

[fishinFamily]

Bill,
"Why wouldn’t we even more so want to ask the Blessed Mother and all the saints to pray for us as well?" This changes the entire point, since what I believe you are saying here is totally different than praying to Mary and the saints, instead they are to pray for us to God the Father.
Please correct me if my perception of the above is incorrect.
Thank so much
Frank

That’s exactly what Prayer to a Saint is - asking them to pray for you. Worship belongs to God alone.

If I were to Post on here, “please read Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:42! Guys, I’m a sinner, please pray for me now and when I’m on my deathbed.” I doubt anyone would blink. But if I read those scriptural quotes and asked Mary to pray for me (that’s the The Hail Mary) some would say that was wrong.

[1Holeshot]

Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah…. I’m not sure what he said, but He didn’t seem to think it was worthless.

Bingo! Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah. I think Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah is totally different than mortals speaking with the dead. Jesus walked on the water but mortals cannot do that. Jesus passed through walls, closed doors etc. but we are not able to do that.

[1Holeshot]

The title of this thread is Christian Unity. While a desirable thought I do not see this taking place on Earth as even on this forum we all have strong opinions about our beliefs.

Fortunately we can be civil and agree to disagree while we pursue a relationship with our Creator.

May all of God's blessings be upon us as we ultimately worship Him.