The true story

[allaboutdabass]

So I have seen it written in numerous places on Facebook over the past few days that there is a great deal of similarity between ActiveTarget and Livescope. Clearly from the videos that looks to be true. Better detail and less evidence of "stitching" on ActiveTarget, but obviously very similar.

I have also seen it written by a many people that Lowrance has stolen Garmin's technology to make ActiveTarget. That seems pretty unlikely to me because surely Garmin would just sue the pants off Lowrance if it were true. So....what is the true story? Who owns the technology or the patents or whatever the proper term is) Does Lowrance have access to the same tech/patents that Garmin does? Does their technology sharing agreement cover live sonar technology? What about Humminbird? Do they even have access to it? Would really love for someone to explain the scenario with referenceable facts (patents, etc.). Am I asking the impossible??

[DewRonInc]

Lawsuit Lowrance won against Garmin. They have to sharevtech

[grout-scout]

I would be more inclined to think that Lowrance is paying Garmin to use their technology. Garmin holds the patent, not sure lowrance owns a patent to anything.

[NoCAL]

Come on guys, this is old news. Navico sued Garmin over the use of a separate element for Downscan. You remember HB stitched Downscan together from the side views. Garmin infringed on that tech by making two separate elements in the same transducer. They lost and as part of the deal both companies agreed to share patents. That’s why we got Dock to Dock auto routing even though Garmin owned the patent.

NoCAL

[grout-scout]

Come on guys, this is old news. Navico sued Garmin over the use of a separate element for Downscan. You remember HB stitched Downscan together from the side views. Garmin infringed on that tech by making two separate elements in the same transducer. They lost and as part of the deal both companies agreed to share patents. That’s why we got Dock to Dock auto routing even though Garmin owned the patent.

NoCAL

If this is true, why would it have taken Lowrance so long to come out with the AT? And where does humminbird come into play here, their mega live has to be similar (I haven’t seen any actual footage of theirs though).

and why does Garmin and Humminbird have lake offsets for depth, but Lowrance doesn’t? Seems odd if they are sharing technology.

[LWINCHESTER2]

Humminbird owns the patent for side imaging. Everybody that has side imaging is doing it under some sort of license from Humminbird. I'm guessing that such a license probably cost something and could have some restrictions. Yes there have been lawsuits.


Lowrance took the side imaging concept, pointed one of the elements down and patented DownScan. I never thought that patent should have been awarded. All they did was copy the SI technology near exact from Humminbird and simply rotate the element to point down. Anyway, they got the patent.


Garmin made their first DI with the element tilted differently, off a few degrees. Lowrance sued. There were two cases that Navico won initially, but Garmin prevailed on appeal. At one time it was legal for Garmin to sell it, if the transducer was not packaged with the unit. A later lawsuit filed in Texas resulted in Garmin being ordered to pay Navico $38M in damages. This resulted, instead of paying the damages, in a confidential agreement between the two companies to cross license some technologies. We do not have the details.

[NoCAL]

Correct

[allaboutdabass]

I would still like to see some links to legal proceedings or patents or something.

On an unrelated note, LWINCHESTER2 do you mean that Humminbird owns the patent for side imaging (which I think is their own trademarked name) or for sidescan sonar in general?

[PMantle]

Garmin International Inc. and Navico settled a series of lawsuits that have dragged on for three years. The companies announced a patent-sharing deal Wednesday, which included "broad cross-licensing of patents and other intellectual property."

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansasci...licensing.html

Garmin and Navico have settled a dispute regarding DownScan sonar and auto guidance patents that has been playing out in the courts and federal agencies for three years.
The agreement includes a “broad cross licensing of patents and other intellectual property.”
"No additional terms or details will be released beyond the press release," said Garmin spokesperson Carly Hysell. "The specifics of that licensing won’t be released, however."
“Research and development of game-changing technologies like our DownScan Imaging is the lifeblood of our business and the marine electronics industry,” said Navico CEO Leif Ottosson in a joint statement issued with Garmin. “We are very pleased with this resolution, which includes guidelines for the future cross licensing of technologies for the benefit of both of our customers.”

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/tech/...patent-dispute

[allaboutdabass]

PMantle - thank you sir!

That makes me feel a lot more confident about purchasing ActiveTarget.

[PMantle]

I would like to see someone dive deeper into the settings to see what is all in there. i.e. gain, TVG etc.

[LWINCHESTER2]

I would still like to see some links to legal proceedings or patents or something.

On an unrelated note, LWINCHESTER2 do you mean that Humminbird owns the patent for side imaging (which I think is their own trademarked name) or for sidescan sonar in general?

I've about said as much as I can without overplaying my hand. For the type of side sonar we are accustomed to, Humminbird brought it to market with patents 7,652,952 (the ‘952 patent), 7,710,825 (the ‘825 patent) and 7,755,974 (the ‘974 patent). Googling this will give you all the lawsuit information you will want to read. There are many other non patent infringing side sonars and patents for them. It's been around a long time, just not attached to the back of a fishing boat and used like we use it. I could be wrong but it is my understanding that Lowrance (SideScan), Garmin (SideVu) and Raymarine (Side Vision) all use this same type technology that the Humminbird patents cover. The lawsuits on this are all finished and as far as I know the Humminbird patents were upheld. Also, and again I could be wrong, but it seems that I learned in reading all this litigation stuff that a patent doesn't always give you the exlusive right to market something. But it does guarantee that if someone else does the same thing they have to pay you what is determined to be fair compensation. That can be through an agreement or also through litigation.

[Scuirus]

By using long transducer elements for sidescanning it's possible to get around the Humminbird patent. This is the reason for changing from LSS-1 to LSS-2. In addition the processing will have to be done in a seperate box.

Garmin got a flying start for multibeam sonar by acquiring Interphase.

[NoCAL]

Man, tough crowd. Requiring sources? Thanks PMantle. Same ones I was going to use.

NoCAL

[allaboutdabass]

Haha. Sorry NoCal. It sounds like quite a few people know (or at least think they know) the details of tech ownership and licensing deals among the sonar companies. But there also seems to be inconsistencies in different peoples interpretation, even just within this thread alone. That is why I was asking for sources. I got some that I think look reasonable (thanks again PMantle), so I am good now. Back to salivating over ActiveTarget.

[grout-scout]

By using long transducer elements for sidescanning it's possible to get around the Humminbird patent. This is the reason for changing from LSS-1 to LSS-2. In addition the processing will have to be done in a seperate box.

Garmin got a flying start for multibeam sonar by acquiring Interphase.

So Humminbird doesn’t let the others use their patents? Obviously not since the transducers are so long on Garmin & Lowrance, I suppose.

[Scuirus]

It can seem as the transducer lenght claim in the Humminbird patent is not licensed while the claims related to the the processing happening in the MFD are licensed based on how Navico's and Garmin's products are implemented. I read all the relevant patents in detail some years ago. Lowrance had expected to go clear with the LSS-1 transducer because it's longer than what's specified in Humminbird's patent, but it needed to be substantially longer to go clear.

I assume Raymarine has got licence for everything because they have a cooperation where they sell their solid state Quantum radar to Humminbird, this radar is available with Humminbird logo.

[Fofo]

Remember Bottomline fish finders with Sidefinder technology. Johnson Outdoors bought them in 2005. It has been discussed before that is most likely how humminbird acquired the sideimaging technology.


https://www.bizjournals.com/milwauke...3/daily14.html

[Chief Brody]

Very useful thread

[Rumour2u]

Navico is paying Garmin for the tech. That’s why they will always be 1 step behind.