When and why do you believe in the Rapture? Why you don't believe what others do. Feel free to debate. In hindsight, I should have listed "not sure". so just check "other options not listed" for that.
I am not sure but hopeing this thread teaches me to believe in one over another. And please select/vote, even if you don't want to engage in the thread so we get a feel for what the majority is.
Last edited by GPtimes2; 07-20-2023 at 07:01 AM.
This is going to sound like it is coming from an attorney (and it is) but you probably need to define "rapture." If you are talking about the events occurring as Paul wrote in I Thessalonians 4:16-17, then yes I believe in it. If that is the end of it, then that is an easy thought process for me. What happens thereafter might be the bigger question and where most people split in their thinking.
Yes, that is it (Christians disappear in the twinkling of an eye). People who believe generally fall into one of the three beliefs I listed as to when it will occur. Generally before, in the middle, or after the 7 year tribulation period. Each has Biblical references that are used to support them (I can't list them due to ignorance).Originally Posted by bassfishinglawyer
This is going to sound like it is coming from an attorney (and it is
Rev 3:10
I believe in Pre Trib. but do not try to convince those who do not.
Standing on the promises,
1Holeshot aka Gary Gabel
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What is your thoughts in the events as Paul wrote it in 1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."?This is going to sound like it is coming from an attorney (and it is
Personally, I would suggest to read the entire chapter in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 to get a broader understanding.
I am attaching a 6-page paper I wrote on why I have come to believe in a post-tribulational rapture. For clarification, there will be a rapture. Jesus said He will return and we will be caught up with Him in the sky on His singular return to earth. So, the question is not IF, but WHEN - and before it is said, no one but the Father knows the date and time of Jesus' return. I am saying "when" as when in the series of prophetic events will we be caught up with Jesus upon His mighty and final return. One thing we do know, is when the pretribulation rapture theory came about - 1830, by one John Darby.
Quick edit - my passion for this subject is fueled by my fear that Christians, like me, are being lulled into spiritual complacency with the false notion that when the going gets tough, we will be secretly snatched out of harms way. This was never promised to us. Suffering, tribulation, times of trail, that is what Jesus said we will face because of Him. I fear when things get really hard, that will be the catalyst for many abandoning their faith.
Andy
Last edited by titanxt; 07-20-2023 at 03:45 PM.
Andy,
One has to look at the hardship the Hebrews endured during their exodus for 40 yrs, though grant it, most of it was do to their idolatry and failure to listen to God; Yet, God was with them during the entire time providing for their wellbeing.
The love of Christ does in no way mean that you will not endure hardships, and I can attest to that personally.
BTW, your pdf makes for a very thought provoking interesting read with very good content to reference.
Last edited by digthemup; 07-21-2023 at 12:19 PM. Reason: spelling
Any pre-tribulation members out there?
I'm glad we all agree on the pre trib view
This verse for the rapture (different from the 2nd coming) is my primary reason
rev 3:10 10Because you have kept[g]My command to persevere,I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come uponthe whole world, to test those who dwellon the earth.
Then the lack of the church being mentioned thru most of revelation gets my attention.
Not saying I couldn't be wrong. Mike winger has an interesting video explaining most view, 6 I think
Last edited by mram10us; 07-23-2023 at 11:18 AM.
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Right here TXT! Bring it on brother :)
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I am totally open to be convinced the pre-trig is true through some good discussion.
I never seek to be right, I only seek the truth.
I agree my friend. I would rather be corrected if i am wrong
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Mram10us and 1Holeshot,
The following is something I posted on the original thread that kicked this thread off:
“In that verse, the word “from” in the original Greek text is “ek”. “Ek” translated is more closely related to “through” and is used to described the removal of something that was part of something else. A few verses later in Revelation the word ek is used again and translated as through…. No where in the Bible is there any other hint of support for the pretribulational rapture. On the contrary, many verses speak of the opposite. It not an if, but a when question. Jesus will return, and we will be “caught up with him in the air” - that will happen. But when? It is at some period during the tribulation when he returns.”
In Rev 7:14 “ek” is transcribed as “out of” when John is told by the elder “these are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.” So, in 3:10 we say it means “from”, but later in proper context to the ones who were killed during the tribulation, we say it means “out of” (I incorrectly repeated the word through in the original post above). The conflict between the translation is also made moot by the many scriptures I noted in the paper I attached. May I ask if you have read it yet?
If you have, how does the one questionably translated verse measure to the many verses that describe a much different series of events?
As far as “the church” not being mentioned past Ch 4, that is incorrect as well as noted in my paper.
Post 4
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1Holeshot, I saw your post on #4 and included you in my message above.
I have not read your 6 page paper yet but will read it and let you know if I am enlightened by it.
As I stated in my original post I do not try to convince others who disagree with me.
I could be wrong and you could be right, you could be wrong and I could be right, or we could both be wrong.
Either way we may agree to disagree.
EDIT:
Andy I read your six page dissertation and appreciate all of the study you put into it.
One thing you mentioned was Jesus quietly collecting the dead in Christ along with living Believers. More or less a sneak mission.
I disagree as scripture says " He will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel with trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first. Those who alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord there. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
No mention is made of those who are " lost " being included.
The " dead in Christ" are the souls of those who died and went to Heaven and are with Christ to be reunited with their bodies.
I believe some people will be saved during the Tribulation period but will be persecuted tremendously and many killed. The ones who persevere will receive great reward in Heaven.
Andy thanks again for your contribution
Last edited by 1Holeshot; 07-26-2023 at 05:32 PM.
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1Holeshot,
I understand and the goal isn’t to force anyone to the post-trib side lol… I just love the discussion and having others bring forward facts and evidence I never considered, especially if it sends me back to the Bible for more research and learning.
I read your paper and I appreciate and agree with many of the points. Thank you for doing that. I just have a different view of Revelation, so I end up in a different place. To me, Revelation is an allegory meant to "show his servants what must soon take place (quoting Rev. 1:1)" and to give those servants (believers) comfort and endurance for the events that were going to soon take place. Not a popular view, I know, because it is not very exciting, but that is where I have ended up.
Having said that, at the end of the day, I do not think any of this matters in the overall scheme of things. Our goal is to live for Him now, and whatever takes place, takes place. It is not going to change the way I live as a Christian.
Bassfishinglawyer,
Thank you for reading it and the kind words. I agree with you in that we have to live for Jesus today, tomorrow and in the future.
Can you explain what you meant by “soon take place?” Are you saying the message of Revelation fits for today or for events to come in the future? Or maybe both? Also, I used to think the message of many of the verses contained in several books of the Bible, included the ones in Revelation, describing Christ’s second return were interesting, but did not matter too much to my faith. However, my opinion has changed. I believe that lack of true spiritual preparation and mental preparation for the hard times of the tribulation will be the reason many turn away from the faith when the going gets tough. I have attached a link to a letter from Ruth Graham that I found interesting.
https://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovr...ture/ruth.html
Sure - always glad to share thoughts among believers. I believe the "soon take place" was the tribulation that the then readers were going to be going through (the 7 churches to whom Revelation was written, along with the other readers to be going through similar tribulation). Revealing something (as this was a "revelation") is to uncover it, not make it difficult to understand. But I agree being prepared for any difficult tribulation is of utmost importance and knowing - FIRMLY - what the outcome will be, is imperative, so that your faith does not waiver.
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