E-Tec 2006 60HP - Problem with engine after replacing starting motor - Help Pls!

[gcmarshall]

2006 60HP E-Tec

2 weeks ago, the engine refused to start. The mechanic came, said that the solenoid had stuck and damaged the solenoid, starting motor and keyswitch. He subsequently replaced these components last weekend. The engine now starts fine but has the following problems:

1) when in gear, occasionally the rpm's jump erratically (as they do when the starting motor is cranking the engine) and a noticable "clunk" is heard from the engine. I believe this is from the bendex gear hitting the flywheel, but not meshing.

2) when in neutral, you can increase the rpm's to 4000+ i.e. there is no rev limiter working (which keeps the rpms under 2000)

3) when the ignition is turned on - the following may happen (after the beep, and the lights come on and off)

(a) the middle 2 lights on the tachometer may come on for a few seconds, and go back off, come on again, etc...(I believe this is the check engine light and engine hot light - but I could be wrong)

(b) the rpm's may increase above 0 and waver around (even though the engine is not on)

(c) the engine may start!!! (happened twice) and with the engine running in neutral, the rpms may drop to 0 on the tachometer, or they may waver around erratically, or they may stay at the usual 800 rpms or so.

Since I have 2 engines with a dual keyswitch, I disconnected the 2 keyswitches from the wire harness to each engine, and switched them around (so the left keyswitch operates the starboard engine, and vice versa), and the problem occurred with the same engine (but the opposite tachometer) so I believe I have ruled out the keyswitch.

We inspected the wiring (from the keyswitch) at the solenoid and it "looks fine" to the eye....

My mechanic doesn't know what it is and is suggesting changing the EMM (he does this when he can't figure out the problem) so I am really hoping someone can offer me a few suggestions....(I do have very basic electrical knowledge and have a multimeter if that helps)

thanks -

[ChampioNman]

Sounds like a bad ground or pinched wire or he may have left a ground off the solenoid when he replaced the starter. Don't think this is an EMM issue. Also make sure all the bolts are tightened on the starter.

[gcmarshall]

hmmm.....might be difficult to diagnose a pinched wire....guess I should be able to easily see if he forgot the ground wire on the solenoid...

interestingly enough, I have been doing some reading on "seloc online" and I have tested the old solenoid switch and it is working perfectly. I wonder how common it is for it to "stick" and then go back working fine again.

[Sportwin]

I suggest you use a dash mounted key switch for testing & plug it directly into the engine wiring harness and retest. In other words, eliminate the boat wiring harness and key switch and plug a known good key switch directly into the engine harness connector. If the problem still exists, it has nothing to do with the boat wiring and has something to do with the engine wiring harness or electrical system on the engine.

Regarding the "NO RPM limit" in nuetral.
Your engine has a NUETRAL switch on the engine. It tells the EMM that the engine is in gear or in nuetral. Make sure the switch has continuity when the engine is in nuetral and is open when in gear.

You have a yellow/red wire connected to the nuetral switch (no relation to starter solenoid yellow/red). The other wire is black and should have continuity to ground all the time.

When the switch is closed (engine in nuetral) the EMM should not allow the RPM's to rise above 1800 RPM.

Check the yellow/red wire @ the starter solenoid for voltage. You should only have battery voltage on that wire when the key switch is turned to the start position. You should not have any voltage on the wire when the key is off or the engine is running.

Check the starter bolts to be sure all three are in place and tight.
Check the main battery cable ground connection @ the engine.

[gcmarshall]

Thanks for the suggestions...

where would I find the main battery cable ground connection at the engine?


Modified by gcmarshall at 7:14 AM 1/18/2008

[Danrude]

The positive from the battery goes to the solenoid then to the starter, the ground is direct to the starter. That is why it is important the starter be tightened down good. Good luck!

[SEAHORSE]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gcmarshall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmmm.....might be difficult to diagnose a pinched wire....guess I should be able to easily see if he forgot the ground wire on the solenoid...
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Gary,

Low voltage can make a solenoid "stick" or temporarily weld the contacts so it will not disengage. Cranking a motor with the battery almost dead is a common cause, but loose, corroded, or bad connections and cables are also culprits.

I read on another forum about someone who posted bad comments on his E-TEC that it was always a problem and had several starters and solenoids installed. Since it worked fine at his mechanic's shop, it took a while to find out that the positive battery cable was spliced inside the boat, under the deck, where it corroded over time, only making intermittent contact.

Another thing to check is the routing of the engine wiring harness to see if it's pinched or rubbing in the area around the starter solenoid, and around the port side where it goes up under the oil tank and may rub on the engine.

Good luck and let us know what you find out.

[gcmarshall]

To add to the issues above, when I turn on the ignition none of the EMM lights are now coming on, and it won't communicate with the laptop. When I start the engine, the 2 bottoms lights flicker on and off....and it will communicate with the laptop (with no active faults, other than an occasional water valve circuit open which I have had for the last few months). I have the mechanic coming down in a bit, so we will work on it and I will report back later how it went....wish me luck!

[gcmarshall]

The latest.........the good news - the mechanic showed up.....the bad news - we still don't know what is wrong...

1) we swapped the EMM from the other engine - did not solve the problem

2) Inspected the ground wires going to the solenoid switch and the starting motor - these were very tight. The bolts fastening down the starter motor were also good.

3) inspected the engine wire harness where it passes behind the oil tank and by the flywheel - there was one wire which had a bit of insulation worn off and a couple broken strands - we repaired this using a heat shrink butt connector, but this did not solve the problem.

4) we swapped the neutral switch from the other engine - did not solve the problem

5) he had a spare wire harness, key switch and tachometer which he hooked up directly to the engine - did not solve the problem

6) I replaced the battery lugs and ensured there was a good connection at the battery.

7) I checked the Lowrance chart plotter which has a voltage display to confirm that the engine was charging the battery when on - it was charging fine.

The mechanic nor I can think of anything else to check, so I would appreciate and help I can get. Currently, I am getting the following problems:

a) when the engine is turned on, the tachometer may display 0, 800 rpms, or may just wave erratically all over the place

b) when in neutral, you can rev the engine past 4000 rpms

c) EMM has trouble connecting to the laptop when ignition on, connects ok with engine started.

d) I have not noticed the starting motor trying to crank the flywheel when the engine is in gear since I have hauled up, but that is most likely due to the fact that the engine spends very little time on in gear when doing the tests. Thus, this is likely still a problem.

Very much looking forward to any help I can get....





Modified by gcmarshall at 11:10 AM 1/22/2008

[gcmarshall]

any suggestions?

[Danrude]

I believe you are going to find that the different problems are going to be related! I think you, as stated before, have a shorted wire or a loose ground. The only way to find it is to start checking voltages at various points. I do not have a wiring diagram or I would make specific suggestions. giving the symptoms though I would look at the wiring harness that runs from the engine to the key switch and tach. Hope this helps.

[gcmarshall]

we hooked up a spare wire harness (with tach and key switch) direct to the engine and had the same problem.

Also, I figure that since the engine is revving out in neutral, that if there was a problem with the wire harness between the engine and tach, it wouldn't cause this problem as well.....I could be wrong however....

I am not so mechanically/electrically inclined to be able to check the wire harness I don't think...and for sure the mechanic isn't going to do it....think I might just have to replace the engine wire harness and hope for the best...that doesn't sound like a cheap part however....

[ChampioNman]

Sounds like a road trip for Seahorse.

[gcmarshall]

I looked at the engine electrical harness on the BRP parts site ( E60DPLSDA ) and it shows two terminal rings that are grounded to the cylinder crankcase. These are only a 1/4 inch in diameter.

We did check to make sure that the starter and solenoid were grounded (there were 2 black wire firmly connected to each, and the starter was firmly bolted down)

But I am not sure about the 2 terminal rings mentioned above. Maybe one of them corroded off and is no longer connected to the cylinder crankcase. Can anyone assist me in their location so I can check?

[gcmarshall]

free accomodation and board, and the Dolphin (mahi mahi) season is underway!

[ChampioNman]

Gary,
Have you contacted BRP? And is your mechanic E-tec trained? I just checked BRP site and nothing Barbados but there must be an area support technician there somewhere in the west indies.

[gcmarshall]

nope and nope. The local evinrude dealer is also the dealer for many car lines (audi, ford, Mazda, VW, Kia, Daihatsu, Peugot, etc..) and contracts all outboard related work to the same mechanic I am using. He is not E-Tec trained, but as he works on all the E-tecs sold, he learns as he goes along...

When I have called BRP in the past they tell me to contact my dealer. The support is definetely not the same as it is for domestic US customers. (not complaining....that is just how life is when you live outside the US)

[gcmarshall]

Called Evinrude Latin America/Caribbean just now. They have 3 people on staff to handle LA/Caribbean, but I was able to get through right away. The guy was very nice and friendly and says they will call my dealer to get the problem resolved as quickly as possible. He was not able to give me any idea to check, but said he would talk with my dealer....and I also talked to my dealer directly just now to make them aware of the problem. (before I was dealing with the dealer's mechanic).

Will keep you posted....

as before - if any of you have any idea where the 2 ground wires on the engine wire harness connect to the crankcase pls let me know...

[Danrude]

It may not be the ground that you have lost. The fact that the computer will not communicate may mean you have lost the 12v. to run certain things and then when you start the engine the 12v. is picked up by way of the stator allowing the laptop to communicate. You are going to need someone to take some voltage checks to resolve this problem. They may be willing through the dealer to send you a new wiring harness and resolve it that way. Lets hope BRP can do something for you through your dealer. Just a thought, this problem started with the solenoid, have you double check the wiring against the second engine to verify everything is hooked up properly.

[gcmarshall]

We did not double check the wiring against the second engine, but it is difficult for me to believe that the mechanic could have wired back up the starting motor and solenoid incorrectly (in such a way that they are working fine, but causing other issues to the engine)...we did look back at the wiring to make sure everything seemed connected fine, but we did not compare it to the other engine. I will take a look this evening and see what I can compare without having to take off the port panel.

Maybe I should just order an engine wire harness and be done with it, since I'm not gonna be able to get anyone to do the voltage checks...I like the point you made re: the losing the 12volts...

One additional thing I discovered today is that the engine is also starting in gear. My dealer recommends that I change the neutral start switch in the binnacle controls and that should take care of the engine revving out in neutral.

And to think - I was quite happy when I found out that the starting motor was shot originally since I figured it was an easy fix, and I would be back in the water in no time!