Vertex Pistons and side pins.......

[JaySmithRacing]

Had a chat with John Marles last night about the side pinned Vertex Pistons and in his opinion about these pistons pins being 100% bullet proof they would live LONG term and he laughed .

He is top pinning many Vertex as well as the other brands, SOOOOO these .030" over Vertex I had to use are heading his way..I like to build a motor with what I have concluded is a 100% assurance that part of the failure equation is 100% GONE, I owe it to my many customers as they put total faith in my desision...

Also because MY name is going on that engine its MY call, it they don't dislodge within 400-500 hours of abuse and you've left them stock your a hero , if they do take a dump you then quickly become a zero. For $300.00 in the grand skeam of things its IMO a cheap insurance policy and a motor being built by JSRE my opinion is THE only one that matters !

Jay

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Jay,it is certainly your perogitive to build your motors as you see fit,and I admire your loyalty to your team of folks that help you achieve success.
As to the Vertex side pin issue,I am curious,how many sets have you used...how many failures due to side pins have you seen?Ive spoken to the folks at Pro,they've sold thousands of those pistons and have no reports of pins backing out,or loosening,according to them...same on their store brand Pro pistons.
In life,there are some things we just can't allow to have a chance at us,but mostly we learn what works by seeing what fails,and adjust out habits accordingly.At our shop we reman all brands of powerheads,but probably average 2 2.5 mercs a week,for quite a few years,mostly fishing and sport motors.If I had them top pinned it looks like I/my customers would have spent around 30,000$ a year,on what to me and mine would have been totally unnecessary...since I haven't incurred a single failure of a side pin in a new piston,and yes,we always bore steel motors,and always install new pistons,so i dont have to worry about getting an old merc piston in the mix,Yes,the early 2.5 merc pistons spit pins,but that dosent apply here.
We've both been at it a while,and both have satisfied customers,let's keep at it,Chris

[EuropeanAM]

Chris:

I'm going to interject here with an observation.

I honestly expected more from you as a fellow BBC Sponsor, engine builder, and manufacturer.

The constant bickering, degrading, etc. is simply not the way I've seen things done on BBC in my short time here.

You've not seen me posting details and pictures about product lines that I recently had to drop due to poor quality, defects, and fitment problems now, have you?

It's a big world.... there's plenty of motors, and plenty business to go around. I think it's best for all involved if we keep things professional....JMHO

[123trentm]

European Marine. Do you top pin all of your customers pistons? Why is it only certain people are allowed to have opinions on this site? It wasn't that long ago a very good mechanic (Wrechin) left this site for the very same reason.

[EuropeanAM]

As a matter of fact... I do NOT. However... I don't fault Jay for his decision to do so... the engines he builds traditonally turn MUCH higher RPM's than those that I build.

I have items/techniques, etc. that I include in my customer's engines.... which others may not use. That doesn't necessarily make one better (or worse) than the other.

In the end... I'm the one that has to satisfy my customer (and must be able to sleep at night knowing that I've provided them with what they paid for).

Above post/comments are simply an observation... and my personal opinion. Some of us spend a tremendous amount of time volunteering here on BBC... and it's simply difficult when there are repeatedly problems (not just limited to this board, or responses to Jay's comments).

There's been on ongoing situation that you may (or may not) be aware of, and I just think it's time that we try to avoid the old, perverbial

" "

JMHO....

[basspastor]

<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by EuropeanAM &raquo;</td></tr><tr><td class="quote"> There's been on ongoing situation that you may (or may not) be aware of, and I just think it's time that we try to avoid the old, perverbial
" "

JMHO....
</td></tr></table>

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Don,I'm completely unclear as to what was unprofessional in my vertex piston side pin top pin comments.
You were asked if you top pin your pistons,you said no.I would wonder why not if you believed it was necessary,so my guess is you don't believe it's necessary,In YOUR MARKET.
I believe we have similar markets,and I'm in agreement with you,I think,I'll certainly not put words in your mouth.
In the piston question post that preceded and initiated this one Jay stated"I build race division motors for completion only",(possibly not word for word),and in his market I'm convinced by his experience( that I do respect),that top pinning is an important factor.
As to my status as an engine builder,I'm not a world class racing engine builder, but I've been at it for close to 40 years as my own boss,and I feel somewhat capable...as in I didn't just fall off the proverbial "Turnip Truck",and find a wrench in the dust.
What is the purpose of these motor forums,to share ideas and educate,or back a few chosen folks opinions?Ever heard of free speech?
Of course these are my only my opinions,and I certainly will change them when and if facts become available to support the change.
Respectfully,Chris

[EuropeanAM]

I'll admit that perhaps a large majority of my above opinion is based <u>not solely on THIS topic</u>, but on a number of topics that I read, and respond to daily (where you also have responded).

Rather than continue this barrage... I'll just agree that we won't always agree.

So... here it is:

Wishing you only the best in your endeavors....

[mstine06]

Everyone has an opinion in this world.

There is nothing wrong at all with what Chris said. I guess Jay is aloud to come on here and over and over and over again state his opinion, but no one else is aloud to give theirs right?

"WELLLLLL,
Believe what and who you choose, a side pinned piston will cost $300 ( with freight both ways ) to convert to top pinned and that failure part of the equation is gone.

Many mechanics I know in person have made a VERY good living repairing V-6 Mercury fishing motors thats never seen over 6200 as well as Hi Per motors that are gutted because of the side pin failure issue. And I've bought several NEW $80,000.00 Z06 corvettes from revenue collected from those failures...

Jay"

I am glad he can buy new Corvettes from building these motors... Plenty of other people can buy new Corvettes as well. Simply a comment to stroke his own ego I guess.

I am surprised as much time is spent on this board spouting off the SAME opinion over and over and over and over again about top pin pistions when there are new Corvettes to be paid for.

We have all seen the same horse beat to death on this subject. If one wants to build motors with top pin pistons, and one wants to build motors with side pins pistons.... FINE.

[JaySmithRacing]

Well darn didn't know I was being precieved as being "dogmatic" about my opinions about what has been proved to be a successfull build processes . Most on this board appreciate the info as I am E-Mailed daily. My suggestion is if YOU (mstine06) or anyone else feels that way obmit or don't read my posts, VERY SIMPLE. Then all that have a "Jay issue" will be content, the ones that wanna learn what makes my engine program so successfull may still wanna read and learn...

As far as my time on the internet happens to come under the heading of MY business, the Corvette comment was to simply refer to how many failures I see and money people are out having me repair them due to these side pinned piston issues...

Jay

[mstine06]

Like the ego stroking Corvette comments are needed??? You know how it was intended so don't try to bullsh*t your way out of it...

You are always stating how you build more motors than anyone else on here...

The equation in the high performance motor business must be:

The more motors you build= The bigger ego you have.

It is amazing how so upset you get when someone has a differing opionion....

[JaySmithRacing]

Me Upset ? Hardly.You seem to be reading into this more that there is...

BTW: I don't have to Bullshit my way out of anything...Things simply are as they are ...

I've NEVER said I build any MORE engines on here than anyone else just that I do build 2-3 a week and have a huge base to learn from , thats facts.. Why would that bother a bistander and not a customers with a motor in waiting or here being built ???????

Jay

[123trentm]

Obviously there is something more to this conversation than I can see. The bottom line is you don't need top pinned pistons unless you are turning excessive rpms. I don't think most "bass fisherman" are turning 7000 plus rpms. I think this was covered in the first post about "pistons". Why was another post started??

[JaySmithRacing]

I must build ALL my motors with every type of insurance policy of success I can muster up. If people don't agree with my programs have someone else build your motors..Real plain and simple
I'll assure you it won't hurt my feelings 1 bit.....

Jay

[blackgts2002]

Why don't you two have a build off? I can see it coming, just do it!

Chris I run your reeds and love them. I sent you two messages recently with no reply. What gives? I hope you are here to support us and not just for a pissing match. Jay and Don are MORE THAN responsive and I appreciate that as do others I am sure.

BUILD OFF!

[123trentm]

I greatly appreciate all 3 of them as well. It just seems like Chris was being bashed for saying Vertex was a good piston without being top pinned. They are a very good piston for what they are intended for.

[mstine06]

Exactly my point 123trentm!

The need to start another post was to say that a member of the so called "cheering squad" was contacted and to make an ass out of anyone that doesn't use top pinned pistons.

Per my comment of stating the same opinion over and over and over again.... there is your proof, another thread has to be started.

I think everyone needs to realize that no one on here is questioning anyone's ability to build motors on here. If someone is not smart enough to figure that out, sorry. What is in question is that some people can't take anothers opinion and then in result can't conduct themselves at a higher level than a 5th grader.

There seems to be one common denominator in all of the threads that turn into arguments.... and I think we all know what that common denominator is.

It is understadable for those that own their own competing business to no speak the "truth" of how they really feel. I on the otherhand do not have a competing business and have no reason to pick sides, so I have the right to speak the "truth" based on the threads posted in here.

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Blackgts2002,I'm sorry if i missed your im's,i guess im spoiled by the system s&f uses,posting an alert at the top of the page when i log on.This dosent work for me on bbc,im sure its my fault,i just dont know how to correct it.Ill see if i can get it solved.As for now,you can call anytime...the shop # transfers to my cell most of the time,and ill help anyway i can.
As top the build off,I believe Jay and I are good at what we do...but we dont really do the same things...I think we'll get along just fine from now on,Chris

[JaySmithRacing]

mstine06,
I'm 60 years old and have faults ah yes its true maybe you don't if ya don't congrads !!. I have a limited amount of time to sometimes explane in detale my intentions, sorry I am a one man band and have LOTS of customers to please and little time ..

Again I might come off as rough and to the point , sorry again. The truth is with me having contact with so many of these engines I form an opinion from what I SEE not what I think, hear about OR read.

I do my damdest to help all that question me and answer questions all day and into the night just the facts and charge NOTHING for my time just enjoy helping people. You talk of ego well maybe thats so , I have been very successfull in life as well as racing I give that Glory to God maybe all that success maybe grows a big one ( ego ) sorry again , I've been called a has been , well all I can say I WAS there done and won it , most that say that crap never was thier nor will ever be ..


All have a great weekend ,

I'm going to the races and see if one of those PRO GAS JSRE "dogs" still have enough UMP to win a race....

Jay

[Tx 201]

Bass Fisherman here:

Okay, I am carrier for the proverbial "Murphy's Law" If it can go wrong, it will and mine will be the "only one I have ever seen like that"! Example: 84 Chevy I had the starter went out. No problem, 305 motor just as basic as it gets, right? Wrong!! Mine, out of the thousands of 305's out there came with a metric starter, and a standard starter would not work. Difference in cost? About $300. Just my luck.

SO.... when I needed my motor rebuilt and knowing there was the slightest chance of side pin failure, I knew it would end up biting me in the butt. I asked Jay to top pin the pistons and he said he always does. Perfect!! I really don't have the time or money to rebuild my "hobby" motor, so while I was having it rebuilt I requested that we take as many "oops!" factors out of the scenario as possible. Oiler -gone! Timing modules - gone! (Caused the first motor blow up) Side pinned pistons - gone! Nylon races (stock Mercury issue) gone! All racing bearings put in the motor. Pistons and con rods all balanced and matched. Some case work that Jay described in a pinned post at the top of this forum. CC'd heads, 145 compression across the board and after 8 months of running, compression is still in the 142-145 range with less than a 3% leakdown.

All of this for about 4,200 give or take a few $ (I can't remember if that covered the cost of a new crank, old one was pitted due to the nylon races) NEW factory power head was $6,800. So, having a world class motor builder build my motor eliminating as many "oops" factors as possible for over $2,000 less than a stock unit was a no brainer to me. I didn't feel like Jay took advantage of me by giving me a better motor than I could get from the factory for less money. If that is taking advantage of the customer, I wish more people would take advantage of me like that.

While I am not turning the motor to 10K, I really like knowing I can run it up to 6800 and not worry about it coming apart. Peace of mind for me was worth all the tricks and costs, including the top pinned work. As a bass fisherman, I really want it to start, get me where I am going and back, occassionally wind it out for fun and not have to worry about if I am going to have motor issues. So, I appreciated all the extra details, even if it could have probably been ok for less money, while we were doing it, I wanted it done to the hilt for reliability. Racers may be used to taking a motor down and rebuilding it, but for a fisherman, it's a pain in the a$$. (Pun intended!!)

I was always informed as to what work was being done and the cost. I could have at anytime said "no", or chose to have someone else build it. If he is driving a corvette on that kind of service to his customers, good for him. (I won't mention the numerous times I called him on his cell phone to ask questions on a different matter) Anytime you can do business with someone and then consider them a friend on the other side of the transaction, that is a true professional.