Electrical gremlin on my 2002 225

[2ntow]

I need some help on this one. It has beaten me since yesterday, and I am no closer to solving it than when it started. Engine is 2002 Evinrude 225, Model E225FPXSTM, serial number 04983661.

Got to the ramp yesterday, raised the motor using the switch on the cowling, then backed the boat in. Turn the key part way on, goes through the system check fine, then tried to start the motor, and nothing. Ok, switched from battery 1 to battery 2, and tried again. Nothing. Motor does not turn over. Pull the cowling off to see if anything was amiss. Everything looks fine, so I put the battery switch on both batteries, go through the start sequence, and first thing I notice is no noise from the pumps. Try starting anyway, and still nothing.

I then pulled it up the ramp, and was going to trim the motor out and put the trailering bracket down. No trim. Button it up the best I can and head home.

Once back at the house, check to make sure the kill switch was hooked up and it was. Try the trim switches again, and still dead. Pull the cover off, get the multi-meter out, and check voltage at the starter solenoid. 12. 4 volts between the batter side and the ground on the starter. Next, check the 20 amp in line fuse and it is fine. Voltage checks fine there, too, at 12.4. Pull the cover on the PDP, hit the trim switch on the engine cover, and they are clicking. Next, check the 10 amp fuse in position 7, and it is good. Also checked voltage on the connector feeding power to the PDP, and it was good. Next, pulled the plug going to the trim motor, and attached the multi meter. Depending on which switch I depressed, it was either 12.4 or -12.4 volts, so we are good to this point.

Checked the charge on the batteries and they were good. Just for grins, I jumped the solenoid switch with a screwdriver to see if I did have a good ground, and it turned the motor over just fine. Next went back and disconnected all cables between the solenoind and batteries, to make sure they were in good shape.

Once back together, tried the ignition again. Went through the normal system check, but this time the fluid pumps did their normal cycle process. Tried to turn it over from the ignition switch, and all it would do was just start to engage the bendix, but not move. Tried the trim again, and still dead. I then pulled the plug with the blue and green wires from the PDP, and tried hooking a positive and negative wire straight from the battery, and still dead, nada, nothing.

It sounds like a bad ground is somwhere in the system, but I have not had any luck with finding it yet. Any ideas or suggestions???

[Sportwin]

Use a set of jumper cables and provide power to the solenoid and ground to the block directly from one of your batteries. See if the fuel pump runs and the engine will crank then. If not, look on the port side of the engine and you will find two relays(square shaped). Remove the one with two red wires, a purple wire and a black wire (main relay). Make a jumper and connect the two red wires together (this is what the relay should do when the key is turned on). Try the key again and see if the fuel pump runs and the engine will crank. Let us know what happens.

[2ntow]

Partially good news.

I was too bull-headed and thought it was a ground issue. Removed the starter solenoid, then the bracket holding the filter module, and cleaned up everything to get rid of some of the corrosion. I don't think the previous owner of the motor ever used any corrosion inhibitor spray . Got everthing back together, tried the ignition, and still the same results....pumps all run but no prize.

Next, I tried the jumper cable suggestion, and same thing...starter would try to engage, then just jump like power was being pulsed to it.

Now, I pulled the main power relay like you suggested. Put the jumper in place, tried the ignition, and still at square one. Just for grins, try the trim switches, and they are still dead, too.

Next, I remembered that I could get the solenoid to engage and spin the starter by jumping the hot battery side to the S post where the yellow/blue wire goes. This would work just fine. Next, pulled the duetsch connector running to the ignition switch and energized the yellow/red wire. Still got the pulsing results on the starter. Now, this got me thinking that the only thing between the connector and the solenoid was the start relay switch. Pulled the relay switch, and used the jumper Sportwin recommended to jump from the yellow/red to the yellow/blue wire. Hit the ignition switch, and SUCESS, the starter spins up like normal!

Now, can I get lucky on the trim.....NO!!! Oh well, at least I am making progress. Off to the dealership tomorrow to get a new relay switch, then chase down the trim problem.

Any suggestions on this next challenge???

[Sportwin]

I'm still thinking about this too. Before you go and buy a new start delay relay, why don't you remove one of the trim relays on the power dist. panel (upper and lower on the right side) and plug one of them in place of the start delay relay. They are the same part. See if the starter works with either of the substitute relays in place of the original. If it doesn't the relay probably isn't bad. Let me know what you find.

[2ntow]

Since I drive by the dealer on the way home, stopped and picked up a relay switch. Plugged it in, and same thing. Problem still exists.

Ran through all 5 steps in the test procedures described in the service manual for the start delay relay circuit.
Step 1 checked for voltage on both yellow/red start wires from nuetral safety switch and key switch. Both checks were in the 12.1 - 12.4 volt range.
Step 2 checked start circuit wiring for continuity, and that was good.
Step 3 checked the ground circuit wiring for voltage to connector, and this showed 12.4 volts.
Step 4 checked function of the diodes in the ground circuits. I think I got .255 volts on this test, withing the .2 to 1 volt range.
Step 5 checked the continuity of the diodes, where you remove the EMM connectors and check continuity. both wires checked fine, with continuity going one way and not the other.

Any ideas on what to try next??

[2ntow]

I went ahead and hooked the EMM up to the laptop and ran the diagnostic software just to see if there may be some clue on what to work on next....NOTHING! Here is what I have:

Engine Model: E225FPXSTM
Engine Serial no: 4983661
Engine hours: 289
ECU serial no: 2278
Software no: 3030271
Software pcn: 58122

Service Code Review
Intermittent - 22 (overheat switch activation @ 224 hours)

RPM Profile
0-1000 43%
1000-2000 23%
2000-3000 8%
3000-4000 13%
4000-5000 9%
5000-6000 4%
6000+ 0%

My guess at the moment is that whatever is happening is being caused by something in the gray and brown wires coming into the relay switch from the EMM. Just need to figure out what to do about it.

Let me know if you need any more info....I really appreciate you taking the time to respond so far.

[Sportwin]

I kinda thought the relay wasn't going to fix the problem. If the fuel pump runs when the key is turned on that means the brown wire that comes out of the EMM on the J2 connector pin 3 is providing a ground to the PDP circuit C and therefore is providing a ground for the fuel pump relay. See the fold-out color wiring diagram in the back of the service manual and the exploded diagram of the pdp. That same brown wire should be providing a ground for the start delay relay during the 1st ten seconds after the key is turned on. If the pump runs, I suggest you wait until the pump stops and then see if the engine will crank. If it cranks after the pump stops then the brown wire to the start delay is not grounded during the 1st ten seconds. After 1st ten seconds the EMM provides a ground to the start delay relay on the grey wire. If that's the case, remove the J2 connector from the EMM and remove the upper plug from the pdp. Use an ohmeter to check for continuity between J2 pin 3 (brown wire) and the brown wire at the start delay relay. Since there is a diode between these two points, you will have to test and then reverse your leads. You should see a very high reading when the leads are hooked up one way, and a low reading when the leads of the meter are reversed.
I suspected that might be the case yesterday. That doesn't explain, however why the trim is not working. That's a separate issue. Let me know what you find.

[RUSTY63]

Guys, just stick a PDP on it and see what happens, got one laying around if you need it. I even have a spare EMM just for testing if you need that too. This seems very familiar.

Neither one of you have worked on commission have you?

[2ntow]

Sportwin -
I have tried it after waiting for the pump stops, and get that funny pulse action from the starter. Does the same while the pump is running, too.

Continuity checked out fine for that wire. I actually checked both the grey wire going into the J1 connector and the brown one going into J2 per the manual.

Good one, Rusty....the commission comment gave me a good chuckle, considering the frustration factor I have gone through chasing this thing! So you are thinking the PDP is causing all this grief? If so, would it be ok to call you and make arrangements to get it shipped to me and see what happens?

[Sportwin]

I enjoy the search for why something doesn't work. Changing parts until you get the right one can be expensive. I have another question for you. Do you have a separate dash mounted kill switch (separate from the key switch) or does the kill switch lanyard turn the key off when you pull it?

[rudejohn]

That start delay relay operates by way of EMM controlled ground. Sure sounds like it's not getting a good one. Have all the grounds on the engine been cleaned and tightened? The ground connection under the starter solenoid bracket may be better if moved to the starter ground post. Also, the ground post behind the CPS bracket usually has paint under it. The EMM can only make a good ground if it has one.

[2ntow]

I know what you mean about the search for solving problems as I am the same way. Plus, it gives me the opportunity to learn more about this engine....far cry from my old 1989 carbed 150!

Kill switch is is the lanyard type that clips under the key.

RudeJohn -

When I removed the solenoid bracket and filter module bracket, I cleaned up any exposed areas on the block where the filter module bracket attached, then relocated the ground wires from the solenoid, filter module, and, I assume, the ground that runs back to the EMM so they were in direct contact with the block. I also used a star washer so there was a good "bite" into the metal. the only other thing I can think of doing is running a wire from this point back over to the ground post.

[rudejohn]

Sounds like you did a fine job on the ground you cleaned. Did you do anything with the other two grounds on top of the engine?

[2ntow]

Cleaned the other two grounds on top of the motor and still no dice.

Rusty -

Would the PDP be suspect, even though the trim relays are working on it, and I can measure the 12 volts at the plug for the trim motor reading positive one way, then negative, depending on which switch is pushed on the motor cowling?


Modified by 2ntow at 3:17 PM 4/26/2007

[RUSTY63]

I was just poking fun at Sportwin , I would listen to him as he will help you find the problem.

[2ntow]

Alright.....trim problem is fixed. It was just a coincidence that this problem showed itself when it did. There was a bit of corrosion in the connector opposite of the pdp. Found it by checking resistance in the wire to the pump, and it was way to high. Traced the wire from the pdp to the other side, opened that connector, and there was some of that evil green stuff on one of the contacts. Other contact looked just as pretty and even had some dielectric grease on it. Cleaned up the bad one, put some grease on it, hooked everything up, and we are back in business on the trim system!

Now if I can get this starting issue resolved!

[Sportwin]

2ntow, in response to your IM, the brown and gray wires are provided a ground by the EMM. The brown wire(J2 pin 3) goes to both the fuel pump relay(circuit C @ PDP) and the start delay relay (two branches). It is a ground only for the first ten seconds after the key is turned on (unless the engine is cranked over). After ten seconds, the EMM turns the ground on the brown wire off if the engine is not cranked. It then supplies a ground on the grey wire to the start delay relay until the engine is cranked. When it sees an RPM signal it turns the ground on the grey wire off and then turns the ground back on for the brown wire, so the fuel pump will run as long as the flywheel is turning (RPM signal). So if the brown wire was shorted to ground the fuel pump would run whenever the key was in the on position (constantly). If the gray wire was shorted to ground the tachometer wouldn't work because the tach signal would be grounded. Regarding the brown wire if the fuel pump runs when the key is turned on for the 1st ten seconds. Isolate the brown wire from the EMM and PDP and do a continuity test as I described, not per the service manual STEP 3. Remember there is a diode between J2 pin 3 and the start delay relay, so if you don't see continuity, reverse the meter leads. If it doesn't have any continuity to J2 pin 3, use a test probe and provide a ground to the start delay relay on the brown wire. The engine should crank over if the EMM is not providing a ground on the brown wire. That ("jumps" like power is being pulsed to it) starter you described usually occurs when the main relay is no good or not staying closed or the EMM is not powered up. The EMM should have battery voltage on pins 4 @ 23 of J2 connector with the key on (that powers it up). Since you found some more corrosion, I would reccomend you start disconnecting electrical plugs and checking them. If it's a deustch connector and you can't see the pins in one end, pull the lock wedge out and look at the pins. Check the filter module & PDP connectors carefully. I suspected we had more than one problem since you told me about jumping the T&T wires directly to battery power.

[2ntow]

Ok....did the continuity test as you described. On the brown wire, I got a reading of 1160 when the red lead was on the relay base and 1 when the black lead was there.

I then verified the voltage feeding the EMM on pin 4 of J2 and it read 12.39 volts. Forgot to do pin 23.

Tried cranking the motor over as during the time the fuel pump was running in the initial key sequence, and got the pulsing effect. Waited until the pump stopped, tried starting, and got the pulsing effect.

I then put a jumper to the brown/grey wire location in the relay base and grounded the other end of the jumper. Hit the switch and it cranked right up.

Now, what do I do next to eliminate the jumper to ground and get it back to normal? I keep going back to that one sentence in the Service manual where it talks about the start delay relay circuit uses EMM-controlled ground circuits.
Does this mean a new emm is in my future?

Modified by 2ntow at 4:49 PM 4/27/2007


Modified by 2ntow at 4:49 PM 4/27/2007

[Sportwin]

2ntow you wrote: Ok....did the continuity test as you described. On the brown wire, I got a reading of 1160 when the red lead was on the relay base and 1 when the black lead was there????????

I don't understand your readings. See below again.

Remove the J2 connector from the EMM and remove the upper plug from the pdp. Use an ohmeter to check for continuity between J2 pin 3 (brown wire) and the brown wire @ the start delay relay(with the relay removed from the harness). Since there is a diode between these two points, you will have to test and then reverse your leads. You should see a very high reading when the leads are hooked up one way, and a low reading when the leads of the meter are reversed.

If there is a good connection, the meter display will show about 1.5 m(million) ohms when the meter is hooked up with the leads one way and OL (out of limit) when the leads are hooked up the other way.

If the circulation pump will run when the key is turned on, the EMM "is" providing a ground to the fuel pump relay via one leg of the brown wire or that relay wouldn't activate and the fuel pump wouldn't come on.

I'm trying to see why the "other" branch of the brown wire (to start delay relay) isn't providing a ground to operate that relay so you can crank. If it doesn't check per the above instructions, there is an open circuit between J2 pin 3 and the start delay relay on the brown wire. You will then have to repair that open circuit.

With your testing we have been able to make good progress but we've gone as far as I can help you go unless you can make a determination regarding the test I've described. Hope that helps and best of luck to you.

[2ntow]

I am using a digital ohmeter with it set to 200K on the scale. Prior to testing the diode, touch the probes together and it reads 0.00, when not touching they read 1.0.

When I had the red probe in the relay base where the gray and brown wires come together and the black probe on the J2 / pin 3 connection, display was 1160. When the probes are reversed so the red probe is on the J2 / pin 3 connection and the black probe on the relay base, reading goes back to 1.

I am going to try to clean out that one connector in the relay plug to see if there is any corrosion. I tried it once yesterday, but may not have gotten it good enough.
Once I get back from little league baseball this morning I will let you know if that had any impact.