E-TEC 75 => 90?

[RockHead]

Hi,

New here, but spent some time searching for this answer before posting...

I have an opportunity to purchase a new 2005, 0 hour E-TEC 75 from my local dealer at a substantial discount, as he really wants it off his floorplan. Problem is, I really want a 90, which is what my boat is rated for and in the case of power, more is more! I don't know the model #, but I think there was only one model 75 hp in '05?

I've done enough with ECU and breathing upgrades on my turbocharged car to know what can be readily achieved with a few minutes and a wrench. I know that the 75 and 90 are fundamentally the same motor internally (block, displacement, etc). Anyone know what parts are different?

I assume the ECU is different and could be swapped or flashed? I've heard, but not confirmed that the intake manifold is different (which makes sense to me). How about anything on the exhaust side? Anything else?

I assume I would need a wink and a nod from my dealer to pull this off as he would need to handle any ECU related change. I know I would be hanging out some risk in the event a a major warranty issue that could be pinned on such an upgrade. But I suspect that's a minor risk vs. saving several thou$and dollar$, and one that I think I'd be prepared to take.

Anyone have any constructive input? Details?

Thanks!

[AquaMarineNJ]

Major EPA Issues Here. So I don't think you will get much of a response. Or maybe you will. good luck

[troutbeck1]

Rockhead:

If it were me, I would not mess with it. As you mention, there could be warranty concerns. Also, I've heard (from a very kowledgable dealer) the 75 puts out about 82 HP anyway.

I have a 50 and am pretty happy. Good luck!

[John from IL]

The diagnostic software won't let you flash the EMM with the 90hp software, as previously mentioned, major EPA thing.

If you really want a 90hp, but the 90 and be done with it.

-John

[RockHead]

If money were no issue, I would just stroke a check for a 90. But I'm a poor SOB trying to support my wife's Olympic aspirations...

BTW, the boat is an 18' Avon SeaRider RIB, used for safety and coaching of disabled sailors, thus the love from BRP. It goes pretty well with an old 1980 Merc 80 (IF it decides to run), but I want all the power the boat can handle in the event of any on-water crisis, like a injury/rescue or needing to tow 4-5 sailboats with 8-10 disabled sailors out of nasty weather, or the like. The utter lack of reliability is driving us to spend the cash to repower. I'm tired of chasing electrical demons unsuccessfully.

Between a BRP discount and the dealer, I'm getting the 2 year old new 75 for $7200, with controls, battery & prop, fully rigged, flashed to the latest update. A new '07 90 was going to be over $10,500 with the BRP program. I can't justify 40% more cost for 20% more power. Dealer actually has more than 1 "old" 75 in stock.

No offense, but the EPA stuff sounds like BS to me. LOTS of people tweak their cars on the aftermaket, and the auto industry is more highly regulated. My car tests just as clean on tailpipe emissions with an aftermarket ECU as a bone stock car. The 75 and 90 mechanicals are essentially identical. Seems to me it should be easy enough to buy an EMM for a 90 and plug it in. Does it need to be "married" to the motor or flashed after that? If it ever needs to be flashed, as far as the EMM is concerned it IS a 90... Even if an EMM cost me $1K, I'd still be $2K+ ahead of the game.

I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and get the 75. It'll be about the equivalent of the old Merc 80 I'm (not!) running now. I'll revisit this question in time, I'm certain it CAN be done, it's just a question of how and when.

RH

[capnlee]

I think you will be very happy with the 75. I have one on a 16' boat that weighs about 900 lbs. dry. I had a 15p aluminum prop that pushed the boat about 38mph, but went down to 13p aluminum to slow down for trolling. Even when I had the 15p the holeshot was impressive. With the 13p it hops right up on plane, even with gear plus 3 people --and I get about 33 mph. Sound like you're getting a sweet deal. Good luck, and enjoy!

[RockHead]

Hmm, you're probably right. There are folks that run 115's on these boats, so going below the 90 it's rated for seems wrong! Especially I don't run WOT all that often, but it's nice to know that there are a few more horses there when you need them, especially since it's the SAME DAMNED ENGINE!

The RIB only weighs 700 pounds dry, but has a flooding/water ballasted hull while at rest or displacement speed. I'm frequently loaded up with kids, dogs, other adults, tools and spare parts to provide on-the-water support. I want a balance of top speed and torque.

No matter what, I know a new E-Tec is going to be a joy to run, vs. this old black guzzler!

[John from IL]

Dude -

BS or or not, it's a little more complicated than that. At present, even though we all know there are no "Pollution Police" it is illegal to "...tamper with any system that may effect emissions." If caught, the fines are stiff (up to $25,000/day) and can be imposed on the dealer and his technician as well as you the owner.

First, the manufacturer has some pretty tight controls on these things right now. If you buy a new EMM, its essentially brain dead. It needs to be brought to life and properly programmed with model number, serial number, injector coefficients, etc. Second, unless one works for BRP manufacturing, Engineering or Technical Service, the software program to do all this is simply unavailable to us general public types. Even the software dealers use isn't capable of loading a new EMM, it requires some pre-programming from the factory boys. Third, for liability reasons, no manufacturer is going to knowingly let someone bump the hp programming - If someone were to get hurt or killed, only the lawyers would get rich on that one.

You said yourself, that your cars hop ups are as clean as stock. Alot of R&D went into that, including emissions testing. Someone had to prove to EPA that the mods were clean. Unfortunately there's more of a demand for clean car hop up parts than for clean outboard hop up parts. Maybe someday, someone will put up the R&D bucks.

We can all appreciate the money issue - we've all been there!

I think you will pretty happy with the 75 as it is, and it does sound like a pretty good deal.

Later,
-John

[RockHead]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by John from IL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dude -

BS or or not, it's a little more complicated than that. At present, even though we all know there are no "Pollution Police" it is illegal to "...tamper with any system that may effect emissions." If caught, the fines are stiff (up to $25,000/day) and can be imposed on the dealer and his technician as well as you the owner.

First, the manufacturer has some pretty tight controls on these things right now. If you buy a new EMM, its essentially brain dead. It needs to be brought to life and properly programmed with model number, serial number, injector coefficients, etc. Second, unless one works for BRP manufacturing, Engineering or Technical Service, the software program to do all this is simply unavailable to us general public types. Even the software dealers use isn't capable of loading a new EMM, it requires some pre-programming from the factory boys. </TD></TR></TABLE>

All right, now there's an answer with a rationale and some detail! I can live with that.

If the EMM needs a factory download, that pretty much makes it impossible. Unless an aftermarket emerges as in the auto world.

A $25K/day fine is a bit much! I think you could defend that though, as the emissions would be no different on a 75 with an OEM 90 EMM. From what I found on the EPA site, installing OEM parts is A-OK, not considered tampering. I think a prosecutor would have a hard time establishing you're actually tampering with or removing any emission control, but having to defend such a thing would be enourmously expensive. It wouldn't be right to ask a dealer or tech to take such a risk.

Maybe in a few years (when I'm also out of warranty) I'll find a 90 E-Tec being parted out on eBay, and I'll take a chance on trying buying a used EMM!

For now I'll have to be happy knowing I saved some dough.

Thanks John.

[johnrude]

If you find a used EMM be sure to purchase the injectors as well and be sure they are located in the proper cylinders. Other wise you run a good chance of blowing up your outboard. These are not like carb motors. You cannot part swap like you use to.

[e-tec_angler]

There is noway a 2007 90hp goes for over $10,500.00...a 2007 115hp rigged out is cheaper.

[ss454]

Why not buy a good used motor and save even more money?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

[302w]

Those blackbird guys are crooked ass people. Do not buy from them. I would trust myself rebuilding a motor rather than buying one from them.

[rudetech1]

Personally, after punishing the 75 E-tec that our now moving on rigger has on his boat, I think you would be happy with the 75 E-tec on a RIB. Set up and propped right, the performance difference would not be really noticeable unless you REALLY loaded the boat down. And remember, should you have EMM issues with your EMM under warranty and it has the wrong one on it, HP,Serial #, ETC. Your servicing dealer will make sure you get the right one, whether you want it or not. Don't waste time and money doing something you WILL regret later.