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1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!!
1996 200 Johnson
I need some help to get my Johnson running right again.
Last weekend, the engine started fine and idled good for 10 minutes to get out of the boat cove. I then accelerated normally and drove for about 15 minutes at moderate speed.
The problems began after I had stopped the boat for a few minutes. The engine would start and idle fine, but when I put it in gear and try to accelerate, it died over and over again. I tried hitting the choke button, but it did not help.
When I finally made it back to the ramp, I checked the plugs and one plug was pretty oily, but the others looked good with light tan insulators. While on the water, the water pressure was good and the pee hole showed good water flow.
Now for my confession.....I do not have stabil in the tank and I had not run the motor for about 9 months. Does it sound like the carbs are gunked up? If you think that may be the problem, is there a fix short of taking them all off and going through all of the carbs??
Your help is appreciated!! http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/bows.gif
Jay
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jayÂs snake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now for my confession.....I do not have stabil in the tank and I had not run the motor for about 9 months.</TD></TR></TABLE>
First, I would suggest you check the compression, if it is within 15 pounds on each cylinder then I would look at the ignition system.
If all looks good I would drain the complete fuel system and rebuild the carbs.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Ok...that is sound generic advice, but does anyone have anything more specific.
For instance, What should I look at if I take the carbs apart? Where does the old gas cause problems? Does this even sound like a fuel issue?
Why was that one spark plug oily? It was the top plug on the right side. What number plug is that? I read a post about jetting one carb differently. Is that the cylinder that was mentioned?
Should I try an additive or carb cleaner first? I saw someone mention Seafoam. Does that sound worthwhile?
thanks!!!!
Jay
Modified by jay's snake at 9:25 PM 10/11/2008
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Put some seafoam in the gas.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (Lockjaw)
Check to see if your primer bulb is still firm when it won't run..If you pump the bulb will it take off then..? Could be that fricken heat soak..
As far as the oily plug that cylinder could be running richer than the rest of the engine for a multitude of reasons....Could be as simple as being jetted richer..If you are talking about the top plug on the right side I believe that is the number 2 plug and pretty much everyone is running that cylinder a bump or 2 richer..
Do a search under heat soak, or Vindicator, venom etc and you will find a ton of info...
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Jay,
I had the same problem.
1. Replace all the spark plugs first.
2. Make sure the thermostats are functioning correctly.
Shade tree method. Start engine on muffs. Watch that no water exits vents on each side, above lower unit when you first start up engine. When engine reaches operational temp. water should start to flow out these vents. If water flows from the start, one or both stats may be stuck open. Also touch each bank and see if they feel the same temp.
The thermostats are located on the upper part of each bank. It's important that both banks are operating at the right temp or you will experience trouble.
Check these things first before moving on, you may be surprised.
Good luck.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jayÂs snake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok...that is sound generic advice, but does anyone have anything more specific.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Jay, Take this guy's advice................he is one of the best in the business with J/E outboards. http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/wink.gif .........................Roger http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (The Green Hornet)
Hey Roger,
I apologize if my response sounded negative, but I wasn't trying to insult anyone.
A compression test sounds like a good way to hopefully eliminate major engine concerns and I plan to do a compression test as soon as I can and I'll post the results.
Thanks!!!
Jay
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
No apology needed Sir................stick up your model and serial # so these guys can help you......................some of the best J/E tech's in the world watch these boards...................be patient and help will come.........................RR http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (The Green Hornet)
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (Bassmeister)
Nope, I could never fill your shoes Mike...........................Roger http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (Bassmeister)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bassmeister »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mister Hornet, Seems ya bucking fer my Jr. Mod status!! http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/wink.gif http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/Laugh.gif </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The Green Hornet »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nope, I could never fill your shoes Mike...........................Roger http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif </TD></TR></TABLE>
There maybe a full time opening http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/wink.gif http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/Laugh.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (Hoosierbasser)
Well I did a compression test and it does not look good.
Here's how I did the test....I ran the engine for a few minutes to warm it up. I then wired the throttle open and disconnected all plug wires. I then pulled one plug at a time and installed the gauge and cranked it over.
All cylinders were at 50 lbs. except the top one of the left side. That cylinder would not register anything on my gauge. It did have some compression when I put my thumb over the plug hole, but I guess not as much as the others.
First of all, isn't 50 kinda low?? I was expecting more like about 100.
Any idea of the most likely problem with that cylinder? The plug looked normal so it seems like it was firing OK. What should I do next, short of pulling the engine apart?
thanks!
Jay
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Hmmmm, while I'm waiting for some input...... I'm really puzzled by the low compression numbers. I actually used two different gauges and I got the same numbers. Both gauges are kinda old though.
I'm not sure it should even run with compression like that and it ran pretty well at higher speed until I stopped.
Obviously, there is a problem with that one cylinder. Should I try squirting oil in the cylinder before performing another compression test? Does using a de-carbon chemical make sense?
On a happier note....How about those Longhorms!!! http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/smile.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Sounds like a bad case of ring stick. Pull the heads and inspect the cylinder walls I bet you will see some major scuffing. Sounds like the motor has never been decarbed.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
Here is the latest update.
After cleaning the carbs, I decided to put in clean gas to see if it would run any better. I took it out and it ran pretty good and it did not have the dying problem any longer. I didn't have a speedo connected, but it seemed to have good power and didn't seem like an engine with such lousy compression.
I then took the plug wire off the zero compression cylinder and tried it again. The engine missed a little but still ran pretty good leading me to believe that that cylinder is not contributing it's normal amount of power.
I'm thinking about decarboning the cylinders to see if that helps compression. What is the recommended procedure and what product works best?
Thanks!
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
BRP engine tuner shot through the carbs with the motor running on muff at idle and up to temp. Follow the directions on the can. When the motor cuts off. remove the spark plugs and shoot a some tuner into each cylinder while turning the flywheel by hand to make sure you have good coverage. Let it sit overnight and restart it in the morning. You will kill any mosquito within 10 miles from all of the smoke and don't do it on a concrete driveway as it will stain from all of the junk coming out!!
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
Thanks Championman!
Now if I can just find a driveway to do it in.........maybe my neighbor when he's gone? http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/Laugh.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Or ya can do it the night before you go to the lake. Get up the next morning go to the lake and run her good for at least 15 minutes. If something happens that you can't make it to the lake then back her into the yard and run it on the muffs. Just don't let it sit in there longer than overnite.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
I also have a 96 200 Orunner with the same problems. I changed the stator, vt-rec, pwr pk, rebuilt the carbs, new plugs------------------(same old result) http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/crying.gif it would idle but would no accel, act like too much gas. I thought maybe the fuel pump might be bad too much or too less of fuel......I thought maybe I should not have put seafoam in gas tank thinking it made the fuel too rich.....I found the maintence valve (for fogging)on primer sel cracked and small o ring pitted.......Replaced new.. still not running right. http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/doh.gif So I went through the link and sync procedure and set to factory specs (screw Adjustments) no justice.... http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/crying.gif but bound to find the problem.. http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/eyes.gif ...While I had the throttle full forward I noticed the TIMER BASE & SENSOR ASSY did not move to advance the spark for higher Rpm's. http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/ohwell.gif It is connected to a spring loaded lever for the idle adj screw. I moved it back and forth eventually removing fwheel and complete cleaning/(lubed) of rust .. http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/praying.gif ....Whole prob solved motor runs like new ( bought alot of parts that I did not need but now got to know my motor better...I would say that my problem is very common on these Johnsons Hope this helps.... http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/USA1.gif http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (sanchezas)
Have a quick question for you... what should the TIMER BASE & SENSOR ASSY look like when it is advancing? Is on top of the motor?
I have the same exact problem as you with a 1998 150 Faststrike.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (bassinRX)
I did the decarb with BRP tuner just as Championman suggested.
I was really expecting lots of smoke and black gunk coming out the exhaust, but it did not smoke that bad and I don't even think I killed the grass that bad in my yard.
Afterward, I took the boat out on the water and it ran pretty good. I didn't make any speed runs to check top end speed though.
After I got it back home, I checked compression on the worst cylinder and it still would not read on my gauge.
I think I've probably lost some power (running on 5 cylinders), but as long as it runs reliably, I'm probably going to keep running it until something serious happens. The dying and stalling issue was apparently caused by old gas or clogged carbs and now at least it no longer has that problem.
Thanks to Championman and everyone else for your help!!
This forum is a great resource!
Jay http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/USA1.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ELGIN)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ELGIN »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> First, I would suggest you check the compression, if it is within 15 pounds on each cylinder.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The First response to your first post.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ELGIN)
Elgin,
I must admit your first post was absolutely on target.
The compression test indicated some problems as noted above, but ultimately cleaning the carbs and draining/refilling the fuel solved the problem.
Thanks for your help!! http://xs-s.com/zf/images/smile/emthup.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
OK... I killed it.
I ran it last weekend and while going down the lake it lost power and I turned it off. I pulled the plug from the top left cylinder and found the plug beat up and it looks like there is a huge hole in the piston.
The first question I have is what is the most likely cause of this meltdown? I assume it leaned out, but is there a prblem with the carb? Is this common on this cylinder?
Probably not coincidentally, this cylinder had zero compression in recent tests.
Then...what is the cheapest fix? I'm assuming the cylinder walls are probably damaged. Can it be sleeved?
All suggestions are appreciated.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Had the same problem last year 150 hp Evinrude Intruder. It was the VRO fuel pump not suppling enough fuel. Check to see if the fuel line pump ball was hard after the stall outs. If not you are drawing a minimum about of gas to the motor. Hope this helps.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jayÂs snake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK... I killed it.
I ran it last weekend and while going down the lake it lost power and I turned it off. I pulled the plug from the top left cylinder and found the plug beat up and it looks like there is a huge hole in the piston.
The first question I have is what is the most likely cause of this meltdown? I assume it leaned out, but is there a prblem with the carb? Is this common on this cylinder?
Probably not coincidentally, this cylinder had zero compression in recent tests.
Then...what is the cheapest fix? I'm assuming the cylinder walls are probably damaged. Can it be sleeved?
All suggestions are appreciated.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes it can be sleeved pull off the head and check the walls. Yes it probably leaned out on #2 look at the front top left carb and pull the drain plug and see if the high speed orifice has backed out. Make note of that size and when re-assembling the motor install a orifice 2 sizes larger. Replace all drain plugs with the new style with the Tit on the end to keep the orifices in place. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (retireman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by retireman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Had the same problem last year 150 hp Evinrude Intruder. It was the VRO fuel pump not suppling enough fuel. Check to see if the fuel line pump ball was hard after the stall outs. If not you are drawing a minimum about of gas to the motor. Hope this helps.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Surprised that the check engine alarm didn't sound.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
Ok, I have ignored my poor boat and broken Johnson for 3 years and it has not fixed itself yet. No magic fairies came and apparently Santa could not fit a new motor down the chimney. So it's time to attack. I hope you are still on the board Championman and anyone else that can help. Thanks in advance for your help.
First of all, here is the engine information:
1996 200 JOHNSON VENOM
Model J200STLEDM
Serial G 03972270
I removed the port side cylinder head and found the ugly truth. The top piston (#2)has been damaged almost beyond recognition. I suspect it had a hole for a while which explains the lack of compression. I'm surprised it ran as well as it did.
I'll post a photo as soon as I can figure out how to do it. Thanks!!
[img][/img]
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Ok, first question. I'm having a hard time getting the powerhead to separate from the housing. Is it usually extremely hard to separate? I there a hidden bolt somewhere?
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Wow two years? Any how. Shift rod disconnected, two 1/2" nuts under front of motor either side of steering arm. Two 1/2" head bolts just behind either side. Remove the 3 long bolts either side of adapter plate. and one 1/2" nut on the back side tucked in the notch of the exhaust bubble. Lift away. You may need to use two pry bars on the pinch points if someone has applied gasket shelllac to break it free.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
Here's the photo. I should warn you if you have a weak stomach to look away.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2utizk7.jpg
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Leaned that puppy out huh? Them water passages look like a dirt daubber colony lives there. Looks like a wee bit of carbon on the piston crowns too.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (Capt.Bob)
<table width="90%" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 align=center><tr><td>Quote, originally posted by Capt.Bob »</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">Jay,
I had the same problem.
1. Replace all the spark plugs first.
2. Make sure the thermostats are functioning correctly.
Shade tree method. Start engine on muffs. Watch that no water exits vents on each side, above lower unit when you first start up engine. When engine reaches operational temp. water should start to flow out these vents. If water flows from the start, one or both stats may be stuck open. Also touch each bank and see if they feel the same temp.
The thermostats are located on the upper part of each bank. It's important that both banks are operating at the right temp or you will experience trouble.
Check these things first before moving on, you may be surprised.
Good luck.
</td></tr></table>
I had the same problem with my 91 200 xp it was both thermostats were stuck open didn't really matter in the summer with high water temps but when it got down below 60 motor wouldn't idle always dying but would run 5500 rpm all no problem go to put back on the trailer die die die replaced thermostats no issues
http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif http://www.bassboatcentral.com/boardstuff2/beers.gif
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
Yup, it definitely leaned out. Is the carb that feeds this cylinder on the opposite side?
Also, I saw a 1996 225 "looper" used long block for sale. What is the difference between 200 and 225 and will my carbs and everything else work?
And what does "looper" mean?
Thanks!!
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
Championman, I almost have the crankcase separated, but there is a tapered pin in the corner that has me puzzled. The manual I have says to make a tool out of cold rolled steel to hammer it out. Sounds llike a pain in the butt to make this tool.
I guess the idea is to make something that will drive the pin straight out without mushrooming the head. I assume Johnson sells a tool to do this?
Any suggestions???
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
No but if you are real clever you can use a punch and drive it out.
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (ChampioNman)
Hmmm....I guess I'm not clever. I still cannot get that stupid pin to budge.
I tried making a tool like my manual describes, but I didn't heat treat it and it just bent. I guess I should have asked for a heat treating machine for Christmas.
I don't see how a punch would work, because that pin is tucked into the corner and difficult to hit straight on. I even tried heating the pin with a torch.
Any words of wisdom??
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Re: 1996 Johnson running bad - I need help!! (jay's snake)
You need to get the long 6 inch punch set from harbor freight and use the thin one it is flexible enough so you can get on the back side of the pin and pop it out. It works.