Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31
  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20

    '06 Merc 225 Pro XS breaking reed valves

    I have an '06 Merc 225 Pro XS S.N. 1B276505 that keeps breaking the reed valves. I had the powerhead rebuilt 2 years ago and now have only 94 hours on it. At that time I had Chris Carson reed valves installed. At 94 hours it broke a reed valve. Even though I'd had the reeds for 2 years he warranted them because he thought they should have lasted more than 100 hours.(great guy ) I only replaced the affected cylinder reeds which happened to be #2. With 2 hours put on the new reeds #3 reed broke so I replaced all of them. Now with less than an hour on them # 2 has broken again.
    Chris Carson thinks there is fuel getting into the crank case but I can't smell any nor any evidence of fuel from the lift pump leaking into the crankcase, lift pump is new by the way, nor any evidence of fuel coming from the vapor separator.
    I have installed a brand new fuel rail with injectors , All new coils and coil drivers, plug wires, and plugs.
    Anybody have any ideas what could be causing this ?
    Last edited by Outdoorsman04; 07-10-2019 at 03:56 PM.

  2. Member lpugh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Sacramento Ca
    Posts
    5,168
    #2
    Picture of the failed reeds may help, could be improper installation
    Lean sneeze
    Extremely unlikely but anything that can cause the coil to trigger a spark intermittently while the intake port is open, but I have seen this automotive as well as Force outboard do this, also causing repeated piston failures
    Last edited by lpugh; 07-10-2019 at 09:10 AM.
    Thank You Leon Pugh

  3. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Greenville, SC (US)
    Posts
    94,945
    #3
    If you would, please take a moment to review the Announcements at the top of the Forum, and be sure to provide the Required Info when posting. Thanks!

    Likely not rails or injectors. Pictures would be very helpful here.


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
    Mercury Parts, Mercury Outboards, Smartcraft & Accessories, Injector Service, TDR Reeds- BBC Sponsor

  4. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #4

    Here's a couple of pics

    Here's a couple of pics.
    The powerhead was replaced under warranty in 2010 because #6 piston expanded in the cylinder and the rod went through the block shop said the motor wasn't warmed up enough . In 2017 in late March #2 piston came apart. Luckily it just scratched the cyl but the reed block was destroyed.The machine shop was supposed to have had a rebuilt 2012 powerhead and just exchanged the computer, fuel rails, alt,etc. but I can't say for sure what was done. I don't know how many hours was on the original block that blew up but I'm guessing around 350 hours. The second block probably only had 50 to 60 hours. (I had a medical problem that prevented me from the fishing for a few years) I now have a SmartCraft guage and I now have 544 hours. The third powerhead was installed with 449 hours on it This is when I switched to Chris Carson reed valves. The fuel and air injectors were supposed to have been cleaned and the fuel pumps were supposed to be replaced. In April 2019 the #2 reed petal broke just like this one in the attached photo but I found 3 fuel injectors were leaking an one air injector and the rail had a leaking fuel pressure diaphragm so replaced the the fuel rail . Since the coils were almost 13 years old and known for failure I replaced them, the coil drivers and wires. So 2 hours on the engine later the #3 reed valve broke a petal as in the photo also. I did find both petals in the plenum. and so less than an hour since replacing all the reed valves #2 breaks again . So that should bring it up to date. I appreciate your help.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Greenville, SC (US)
    Posts
    94,945
    #5
    Buy complete new reed block assemblies. These blocks have been machined to remove the rubber (which also removes a portion of the reed landing surface).

    Replace with factory reed blocks and Carbon Fiber Reeds.


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
    Mercury Parts, Mercury Outboards, Smartcraft & Accessories, Injector Service, TDR Reeds- BBC Sponsor

  6. BBC SPONSOR
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Key Largo, FL
    Posts
    1,206
    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by EuropeanAM View Post
    Buy complete new reed block assemblies. These blocks have been machined to remove the rubber (which also removes a portion of the reed landing surface).

    Replace with factory reed blocks and Carbon Fiber Reeds.
    I am aware of your opinion regarding removing the rubber from the cages,when we do this modification we install reeds with slightly larger petals to maintain adequate reed landing surface.There are hundreds of these cages in service,doing well...and,for what it's worth,you can see the petal broke off completely...no damage to any landing surface.I don't know what is causing the failures,but broken petals usually can be associated with fuel getting into the crankcase,a misfiring CDM,or running on the rev limiter,this failure is not common,My opinion,Chris

  7. Member lpugh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Sacramento Ca
    Posts
    5,168
    #7
    As an outsider looking in a see both of your points, If I was going to install reeds on those blocks I would straight edge to mounting edges checking for high spots such as threads pulled up a little, then would inspect the clamps strap any distortion and I would be sure it had a very sleight radius on the working edge where the reeds flex against it. Could be to much localized pressure at that point causing a cutting action where that reed broke
    I am also a little troubled when I zoom in by the mountings screw hole on the reeds. Also the strap appears to have holes off center indicating there may be a specific way to install
    Hell I am not a marine tech and have not replaced reeds in over 20 years.....Just observations from a auto tech. You guys tell me if I have valid points, that's how learn more

    For a fishing motor I would follow Dons advice, I mean no offense at all Chris I am very aware that your know you Chit on these motors and more than most
    Last edited by lpugh; 07-12-2019 at 06:13 PM.
    Thank You Leon Pugh

  8. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #8
    Yes the retaining strap does install a certain way and I can definitely say there was nothing improper about the installation when I replaced the reeds and since they lasted 94 hours when Chris did them I'm thinking it has to be " sneeze" somehow in the crankcase. I'm an ASE Master Tech with 43 years experience BUT... it's in the automotive field. While I know my way around a 2 stroke an Optimax Pro XS is a different story. I have purchased the fuel and air pressure gauges and all pressures are as they should be 110psi fuel and 95 psi air , no drop in pressure for over 20 minutes but this is in a test tank. I guess I'll hook up the gauges and try a WOT on the water.. I might mention when the reed valves have failed it has been at WOT around 5400 rpm and climbing. MPH was 67 last time and climbing. I have a 25p Fury 3 blade on a 21 ft Triton, 4 batteries Starting Battery is an Excide Megacycle XMC 31 925 cca and 1100 ca ,empty livewells and 3/4 full tank. I don't have a scanner so I can't give anymore info than what I have. I am wondering if the TPS could be the culprit. I'll do a voltage test on it today and probably buy a Rinda Techmate. Please don't let this thread get into an argument between OEM reeds valves versus a/m fiberglass reeds.
    Last edited by Outdoorsman04; 07-11-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  9. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Greenville, SC (US)
    Posts
    94,945
    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Carson's Marine View Post
    I am aware of your opinion regarding removing the rubber from the cages,when we do this modification we install reeds with slightly larger petals to maintain adequate reed landing surface.There are hundreds of these cages in service,doing well...and,for what it's worth,you can see the petal broke off completely...no damage to any landing surface.I don't know what is causing the failures,but broken petals usually can be associated with fuel getting into the crankcase,a misfiring CDM,or running on the rev limiter,this failure is not common,My opinion,Chris
    Chris- this isn't a "brand" thing- it's the simple fact that there must be an adequate reed block surface for the reed to lay or land on. The narrower the surface the higher the odds that the reed may hang in the window under "some" running condition or scenario. I honestly do not know of a reed brand (any) that would be likely to stand up long-term with such a narrow window sealing surface- see the below mark-up (this is the actual image the OP posted, blown up):



    THAT is why I do not recommend machining away all of the rubber from the reed blocks.

    That being said- I would definitely be checking the Pulse Pump Diaphragms (replace), and verifying that any required balance plugs are in the front of the block (some require them, later models don't even have a place for them).
    Attached Images Attached Images


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
    Mercury Parts, Mercury Outboards, Smartcraft & Accessories, Injector Service, TDR Reeds- BBC Sponsor

  10. BBC SPONSOR
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Key Largo, FL
    Posts
    1,206
    #10
    I will agree the reed was not centered as well as possible in this instance on the cage dividers,but as mentioned before,the overlap on the cage dividers had nothing to do with this failure.I cut a lot of reeds,many of them run on bare aluminum cages with narrower dividers than these.For instance,the 7 petal 260/280/300 drag cage has narrower dividers and run at much higher rpm's...eventually the tips fray,but hardly ever the sides of the petals...running at 8000-10000 rpm's.The reed in the picture,poorly lined up,still had no damage on the footprint area after nearly 100 hours,then a second one broke after just a couple hours...I'm not clear on the cause, there needs to be adequate contact area,and it seems there is,Chris

  11. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #11
    I did pay attention to this when I installed the reeds myself.The contact area pattern was made by the reeds with 94 hours on them which Chris's shop did. I didn't do much better at getting more equal side contact on any of the reeds but it is a give and take situation. So in anybody's opinion ,is there any way in which this small contact area on the sides but quite a substantial contact area on the bottom, like this, is going to break off the reed petal completely and cleanly as it did ?
    Last edited by Outdoorsman04; 07-11-2019 at 09:50 PM.

  12. Member lpugh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Sacramento Ca
    Posts
    5,168
    #12
    Were the blocks set deeper to stuff the crankcase?
    Thank You Leon Pugh

  13. BBC SPONSOR
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Key Largo, FL
    Posts
    1,206
    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman04 View Post
    I did pay attention to this when I installed the reeds myself.The contact area pattern was made by the reeds with 94 hours on them which Chris's shop did. I didn't do much better at getting more equal side contact on any of the reeds but it is a give and take situation. So in anybody's opinion ,is there any way in which this small contact area on the sides but quite a substantial contact area on the bottom, like this, is going to break off the reed petal completely and cleanly as it did ?
    I have cut and installed very many reeds with very little side contacts in high perf motors with no problems providing 1,there is ample contact area at the tip,and 2,the material is stiff enough as to not cave into the cage window from the crankcase pressure.This reed meets the above criteria,and the sealing area had nothing to do with the hinge point break,more likely a strong backfire,Chris

  14. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by lpugh View Post
    Were the blocks set deeper to stuff the crankcase?
    Yes and No. When the first reed broke I did not have crankcase stuffers in. Chris Carson warranted the reeds and I bought stuffers at that time. Then 2 hours later #3 reed broke. I replaced ALL the reed valves and removed the stuffers. I don't know if this sheds any light on the breaking but the stuffers increased take off substantially but decreased top end by 3 MPH. After that #2 broke again without stuffers .Sounds kind of odd to me.

  15. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Greenville, SC (US)
    Posts
    94,945
    #15
    How many hours (approximately) were on the engine when it was rebuilt two years ago (and did it have broken reeds at that time, other than potentially ones damaged by metal)?

    Definitely would have had more than 290 hours on them at that time, I believe.


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
    Mercury Parts, Mercury Outboards, Smartcraft & Accessories, Injector Service, TDR Reeds- BBC Sponsor

  16. BBC SPONSOR
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Key Largo, FL
    Posts
    1,206
    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman04 View Post
    Yes and No. When the first reed broke I did not have crankcase stuffers in. Chris Carson warranted the reeds and I bought stuffers at that time. Then 2 hours later #3 reed broke. I replaced ALL the reed valves and removed the stuffers. I don't know if this sheds any light on the breaking but the stuffers increased take off substantially but decreased top end by 3 MPH. After that #2 broke again without stuffers .Sounds kind of odd to me.
    Strange thing about the loss of top speed,first time I've heard of that.Independent testing with with a 250 xs showed a noticeable increase in acceleration torque,only 1 ft/lb gain at wide open,but no loss of hp at wide open...Chris

  17. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by EuropeanAM View Post
    How many hours (approximately) were on the engine when it was rebuilt two years ago (and did it have broken reeds at that time, other than potentially ones damaged by metal)?

    Definitely would have had more than 290 hours on them at that time, I believe.
    In 2017 when the 2nd power head failed the computer had 447 hours. It damaged on one reed block, #2 cyl. I'm just guessing because the shop didn't put the hours on the receipt when it was replaced under warranty in 2010. I think but less than a hundred hours and I'm really think only 50 to 60 hours.As mentioned early I had medical issues for several years. I now have a SmartCraft gauge. I don't know how many reed blocks were replaced in 2010, I only saw the damaged bare block but based on the damage I think at least 2 reed blocks had to be damaged in 2010..
    Last edited by Outdoorsman04; 07-12-2019 at 05:29 PM.

  18. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Greenville, SC (US)
    Posts
    94,945
    #18
    Didn't show any reeds being replaced under warranty (or on the Powerhead replacement in 2010 (at 256 hours)). So it's possible the ones replaced in 2017 were 12 years old @ 447 hours.


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
    Mercury Parts, Mercury Outboards, Smartcraft & Accessories, Injector Service, TDR Reeds- BBC Sponsor

  19. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Carson's Marine View Post
    Strange thing about the loss of top speed,first time I've heard of that.Independent testing with with a 250 xs showed a noticeable increase in acceleration torque,only 1 ft/lb gain at wide open,but no loss of hp at wide open...Chris
    Seems strange to me also. Because of this I'm leaning towards lean air/fuel ratio at WOT or am I way off course and could it be a rich mixture and contaminating the crankcase ? As soon as the parts get here I'm replacing all three fuel pumps,all the fuel line,the VSP float and needle and of course the fuel filter. All of the parts I believe would create a lean condition except the needle and float. I would replace the seat as well but the parts illustrations say it is not available separately but doesn't tell me separate from what. I'm assuming the vapor separator upper cover.
    Last edited by Outdoorsman04; 07-12-2019 at 05:40 PM.

  20. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    20
    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by EuropeanAM View Post
    Didn't show any reeds being replaced under warranty (or on the Powerhead replacement in 2010 (at 256 hours)). So it's possible the ones replaced in 2017 were 12 years old @ 447 hours.
    I guess you were able to look up the service record to get the hours on the original block replacement.
    I no longer have the receipt but I think it just it said replace power head and didn't list any parts but I can't imagine none being damage after seeing the block destroyed like it was. So yes it's possible the original reeds had 447 hours on them.
    Last edited by Outdoorsman04; 07-12-2019 at 08:34 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast