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  1. #1
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    Blank question. Envy 40T

    Anyone happen to know who builds these blanks?
    This series rod is no longer made and they now use a junk 30T rod blank. If I could find these blanks, I'd have some built.20190520_100503.jpg

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    #2
    Can't help with the blank builder but here is something you may find interesting or maybe not.



    Good evenin' folks,
    I may be about to open a SERIOUS can of worms with this thread, but what the heck.....here goes anyway. Being in the blank distribution business, I get asked A LOT about the construction and makeup of the various graphite rod blanks that I sell. And, I have to say that whenever somebody asks me about modulus I just cringe! Here is why; It seems that about 90% of the folks that email me want to know what the modulus is of the blank(s) they are considering buying. When I ask "Why do you want to know that" they can't really give me an answer....they're just convinced that higher the IM rating is better. Here is how the conversation usually evolves:
    Mr. Customer: What modulus is that blank made from?
    Andy: Well, if you must know, it's about 40million Msi
    Mr. Customer: What does that mean?
    Andy: Well, it means the blank is made from the material you have come to know and love as IM6
    Mr. Customer: Oh, that's too antiquated...I only fish with IM7 and higher.
    Andy: Really? Did you know that the difference between IM6 and IM7 is not the modulus it's the tensile strength?
    Mr. Customer: Really?
    Andy: Yeah REALLY!
    Mr. Customer: Eh Hhhmmm....erreer, uh, oh....well uh....well Bass Pro Shops says...
    Andy: Forget Bass Pro shops...let's look at the numbers (at this point Andy whips out his trusty data chart that illustrates the differences between the different fibers that actually have IM designations). Here take a look at this. This comes from a chart put together by the folks at Hexcel (http://www.advancedcomposites.com/technology.htm)
    The number on the far right is the modulus of the fiber, and the number in the middle is the elongation to failure or stretch.
    Hexcel IM4 600 40
    Hexcel IM6 760 40
    Hexcel IM7 780 40
    Hexcel IM8 790 44
    Hexcel IM9 920 42
    Mr. Customer: You Mean all this time I thought I was getting a higher modulus fiber with the higher IM rating, when what I was really getting is a fiber that stretches more?
    Andy: Well, in some cases you are, and in some cases you arent. The fact is though that the difference between IM6 and IM7 is nothing in terms of modulus, and compared to IM8 it's only slightly higher. Wow...look at that IM9 actually has a lower modulus than IM8...go figure Now, many companies are using fibers with a much higher modulus, like 57 and even higher, however these fibers don't necessarily use the IM ratings. So, whenever you see a fiber with an IM rating...BUYER BEWARE! THE HIGHER THE IM RATING, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THE HIGHER THE MODULUS!!!
    The point is this folks...just because you have a blank made from a high modulus fiber, doesn't means it's a good rod! And vice versa, just because you have a blank with a low modulus...even the original fiber blanks were made with (33 million) doesn't mean it's a bad or outdated rod. It's all about what the designer does with it.
    I know there are some of you that may already know this, but judging from the amount of calls I get on a daily basis from folks who ONLY want IM7 or IM8, but can't really tell you why, I have to believe they don't really know what they are talking about at all. They've just been sucked into the marketing machine that leads people to believe that the higher the IM rating, the lighter and more sensetive the material, which is not always the case.
    Be forewarned that there is A LOT more to graphite blank construction, performance, quality, sensetivity, weight etc... than just what modulus the fiber is. There are lots of other variables like flag patterns, and wall thickness, and resin systems, and mandrel design....It's all about the talent of the designer, and what he is able to do in terms of the sum of those variables...not just the friggin modulus!
    Whewww...ok I feel better now...
    My aforementioned explanation of modulus and IM ratings is by no means meant to be anything more than a brief primer for the folks who didn't realize what the differences with the IM ratings were. I hope this clears things up a bit, and I hope that some of you will chime in on this as well. Oh, here is a link to the Hexcel page for those of you who want to investigate the matter further. Do a search for IM6 and you'll get some interesting info. (if you're into that kind of techie junk).
    [www.hexcel.com]
    [www.advancedcomposites.com]
    Now, this gives you some ammunition...next time you stroll into BassPro, and some yahoo tries to sell you a rod based on it's IM rating, ask him to explain to you why the higher IM ratings are better. When he replies by sayin' that the higher the IM rating means more sensetivity, less weight etc....just tell him that you have a blank at home made from IM2000, and see what he says.
    Regards,
    Andy Dear
    Lamar Manufacturing
    Last edited by D.O.C. 989; 05-20-2019 at 12:23 PM.

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    #3
    D.O.C. 989.
    Thank you.

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    and that's why I use ThreadMaster...Andy knows his sh!t

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    #5
    Modules and tonnage numbers don't mean a whole lot. That being said, the higher the mod, the better the grade the graphite should be. But, there's so much more that goes into a rod blank, such as manufacturing process and resin systems. The blank 13 uses for these is likely an Chinese or Korean OEM. If you are serious about building a rod, get a blank from a trusted manufacture who does it right. I'm a blank fanatic, and I eat up all the additional information a blank manufacture will provide. Part of the reason I'm cocoa puffs over Point Blank...Plus the blanks are the t*its. You can email or contact 13 direct, but you likely won't get far with your inquiry. The blanks they use are likely mass produced, used for other rod companies as well, and only available on a wholesale level. It's not a 13 only proprietary type of deal.....I doubt it anyways.

  6. BBC SPONSOR cidgrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willwork4fish View Post
    and that's why I use ThreadMaster...Andy knows his sh!t
    You know Andy hasn't owned Threadmaster in years right? Scott Parsons bought it years back and now MudHole officially owns the brand.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogsticker View Post
    That being said, the higher the mod, the better the grade the graphite should be. But, there's so much more that goes into a rod blank, such as manufacturing process and resin systems.
    Should being a key word here.

    Many manufacturers will use a full pattern of 24T with some 30T, 40T, etc in the butt so they can say it's a X ton blank. Don't assume a rod is all only what it is advertised as.

  8. Goby King
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by cidgrad View Post
    now MudHole officially owns the brand.
    I wondered when that cat was gonna be let out of the bag. I was hoping Andy was going to buy it back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cidgrad View Post
    You know Andy hasn't owned Threadmaster in years right? Scott Parsons bought it years back and now MudHole officially owns the brand.
    Sure but he's the one that came up with the formula, haven't noticed a difference between then and now.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by cidgrad View Post
    Should being a key word here.

    Many manufacturers will use a full pattern of 24T with some 30T, 40T, etc in the butt so they can say it's a X ton blank. Don't assume a rod is all only what it is advertised as.
    Yes. It depends on the blank maker, but obviously they don't let just anyone and everybody know what their proprietary magic recipe is exactly. Scrim material and lack of such material play roles as well. You're the blank maker, I just like to fondle them.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogsticker View Post
    Yes. It depends on the blank maker, but obviously they don't let just anyone and everybody know what their proprietary magic recipe is exactly. Scrim material and lack of such material play roles as well. You're the blank maker, I just like to fondle them.
    You might be surprised how many companies actually use the same exact same stuff. It's a big production to create a special scrim/carbon/resin combination. You have to use A LOT of fiber to get that done. I mean A LOT.

    The prepeg companies control a good bit of all that on small companies as a result. It's good stuff - example - the material used in our NG blanks is also used by Boeing in the the Dreamliner airplane. Boeing calls the shots and if they want a change, we're impacted because our volumes are literally scraps compared to what they use. If the prepeg company (pretty much Mitsu or Toray now) decides to cut something - you better figure out how to change. Over time we have had four different resin systems in our NG blanks - but the engineering on our end alters to achieve the same performance in the end product. End game on this is - most smaller companies use an off the shelf prepeg and make it work. The amount of material used in a rod is nothing compared to cars, airplanes, wind turbines, etc. Those industries call the shots. I only know of a couple US rod companies that produce the volume to have their own prepegs made.

    A lot more behind the scenes than people realize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cidgrad View Post
    You might be surprised how many companies actually use the same exact same stuff. It's a big production to create a special scrim/carbon/resin combination. You have to use A LOT of fiber to get that done. I mean A LOT.

    The prepeg companies control a good bit of all that on small companies as a result. It's good stuff - example - the material used in our NG blanks is also used by Boeing in the the Dreamliner airplane. Boeing calls the shots and if they want a change, we're impacted because our volumes are literally scraps compared to what they use. If the prepeg company (pretty much Mitsu or Toray now) decides to cut something - you better figure out how to change. Over time we have had four different resin systems in our NG blanks - but the engineering on our end alters to achieve the same performance in the end product. End game on this is - most smaller companies use an off the shelf prepeg and make it work. The amount of material used in a rod is nothing compared to cars, airplanes, wind turbines, etc. Those industries call the shots. I only know of a couple US rod companies that produce the volume to have their own prepegs made.

    A lot more behind the scenes than people realize.
    That is some very interesting information. I was a big fan of Shikari blanks in their heyday. When they went away, I and several others did a lot of research on where the mandrels went. After some time it became apparent that the mandrels were not the biggest factor in their blanks. If I am not mistaken the mandrels for any specific series could easily be copied or made by some other company by their design engineers. Due to a lot of what you said it appears that the more important aspects of what was used to make them changed as better and better stuff came about. It appears there is a lot more involved than just the mandrels. I am of the opinion that if you look long and hard enough you can find blanks from different companies that are very comparable to blanks of the past and even off the shelf high end rods. Thanks for your education to those interested in the whole process. Oh, and get busy on those two piece lite blanks we need even though there isn't much market for them!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.O.C. 989 View Post
    That is some very interesting information. I was a big fan of Shikari blanks in their heyday. When they went away, I and several others did a lot of research on where the mandrels went. After some time it became apparent that the mandrels were not the biggest factor in their blanks. If I am not mistaken the mandrels for any specific series could easily be copied or made by some other company by their design engineers. Due to a lot of what you said it appears that the more important aspects of what was used to make them changed as better and better stuff came about. It appears there is a lot more involved than just the mandrels. I am of the opinion that if you look long and hard enough you can find blanks from different companies that are very comparable to blanks of the past and even off the shelf high end rods. Thanks for your education to those interested in the whole process. Oh, and get busy on those two piece lite blanks we need even though there isn't much market for them!!
    Absolutely. I've seen blanks that were obviously off different mandrels have the exact same performance. I've seen an MB843 off the same mandrel as a MB844, just rolled 1" lower on the same mandrel.

    Lots you can do and manipulate.

  14. Goby King
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    Quote Originally Posted by cidgrad View Post
    I've seen an MB843 off the same mandrel as a MB844, just rolled 1" lower on the same mandrel.

    Lots you can do and manipulate.
    Yep. I've had identical models of both St Croix and Rainshadow blanks feel entirely different, like a full power different. Location on the mandrel and trimming would probably explain that.