HVAC replacement question

[CastingCall]

Question: What is a reliable brand of furnace and/or heat pump system to look at? What should I steer clear of?

Back story: Our Bryant high efficiency forced air furnace crapped the bed (heat exchanger went out) at the 14 year mark. Cost to repair it isn't worthwhile due to it's age - and it doesn't look like it's a warranty repair (according to a couple local companies' techs who have looked at it).

We've been wanting to go to a more efficient system - geo-thermal, or heat pump - but having the existing furnace quit is accelerating that process.
We're rural, and use propane.

I read this old thread http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=881337 and Goodman/Daikin was mentioned. I have a quote from one local company for a Daikin 80k BTU 2stg DM96VC furnace, 4 ton Daikin coil, and 3 ton Daikin DZ16TC heat pump. Before calling too many more companies for quotes, I'd like some experts in the HVAC business opinions on what brands I should focus on.

Note: We have a large home, and have 2 furnaces - but only looking to replace/upgrade the main level one (which crapped out). So we are not in a desperate time crunch without heat.

TIA!

[Cape Fear]

I run on propane as well and installed a Amana split system last year. No problems so far and it is more effect then the Comfortmaker that it replaced. One of my neighbors has a older model Amana and has had very few problems as well. When time comes to replace the upstairs heat pump I will go with Amana also.

[catch5]

Heat pump in Minnesota?? Is it not too cold up there for them to be cost effective?? Hell I wouldn’t own here in southern Indiana. Lol

[Charles Prestridge]

Do very many in Minnesota use heat pumps with electric resistance-heaters?

I know heat pumps continue to improve, but would think you need to at least use propane for heat when temps are below approximately 25-30 degrees.

[slonezp]

Research your installer as diligent as the equipment. A shitty install will make the best brand of equipment perform like crap and be problematic.

[DMart1]

I wouldn't bother with a heat pump that far north. They payback isn't going to be there. Trane, York and Carrier are all good options.

[glasscat]

If you are replacing the ac system the same time as the gas furnace, go with heat pump for dual fuel. Above 35 degree days will work great. As stated before it is not always the brand, but the installation that creates problems. Get in writing the equipment to be installed and how they will be adapting to existing ductwork. Make sure they install new refrigerant lines.

[Have rod will travel]

Like others have said, stay away from heat pumps, and electric units

[Justfishing]

Natural gas went through a phase many years ago where it was getting expensive and people thought heat pumps were an option. Gas prices came down and will remain down. It is a better option for heat. Get a 90+ gas furnace and get a good AC. Change out the coil with the AC. The coil has to be matched to the AC.

Geo thermal is a very expensive system. If your home is not well air sealed and insulated you have to install more wells. This really drives the price that much higher. Also it is hard to get an efficiency rating "as installed." The system itself has a good cop rate. But that does not include the cost of running the pump. This the as installed cop suffers.

With a dual furnace house I am guessing you have a two story. I bet in the summer the 2nd floor is hot. So instead of buying expensive equipment to get a lower bill I suggest you do some air sealing and insulation. This will reduce the work load. Then get a better than average ac/gas furnace. Be sure to get heat load calculations to assure the correct size.

[catch5]

Natural gas went through a phase many years ago where it was getting expensive and people thought heat pumps were an option. Gas prices came down and will remain down. It is a better option for heat. Get a 90+ gas furnace and get a good AC. Change out the coil with the AC. The coil has to be matched to the AC.

Geo thermal is a very expensive system. If your home is not well air sealed and insulated you have to install more wells. This really drives the price that much higher. Also it is hard to get an efficiency rating "as installed." The system it's s
itself has a good cop rate. But that does not include the cost of running the pump. This the as installed cop suffers.

With a dual furnace house I am guessing you have a two story. I bet in the summer the 2nd floor is hot. So instead of buying expensive equipment to get a lower bill I suggest you do some air sealing and insulation. This will reduce the work load. Then get a better than average ac/gas furnace. Be sure to get heat load calculations to assure the correct size.

I’m on natural gas, and my gas bill is $43 a month year round. Budget billing. I figure $516 a year to run a gas furnace and gas water heater is going to be pretty tough to beat. Lol

When I had a heat pump I was almost guaranteed a $3-450 electric bill a month when the furnace was on.

[yatesville88fan]

If you are used to propane heat. You will freeze to death with a heat pump. Electric heat is COLD compared to gas, or propane.

[havacman]

Question furnace is 14 years old what was the heat exchanger warranty period? When I did HVAC in residential before begin more commercial geothermal about 15 years ago many had a 20year heat exchanger warranty. In Minnesota I would personally stay with gas and at most add the heat pump replacement for the outside unit thus going dual fuel but would no way go direct heat pump with electric furnace backup heat on main level of your house. When you have the upstairs unit changed if your house is designed that the first floor heat migrates up and keeps the upstairs warmer in winter then you might get by with a heat pump second story. Me personally I really don’t pay attention to any specific brand of equipment anymore. But based on #1 quality installation, #2 warranty of equipment. The highest dollar most effecient equipment isn’t worth much incorrectly or poorly designed and installed where as the cheapest least efficient quality installed equipment and designed correctly will work well with less repairs. Years ago like 25-30 equipment manufacturers made and used a lot of their own compressors and components which I could tell you a difference. now they buy from generic manufacturers thus basically about the same internally . Most now only make their own coils and cabinets all other parts will be similar brands. Geothermal started big and majority of people like them that have them but the loop design is critical and installation will cost about as much as the cost of the heat pump itself so basically you pay double. You have to keep in mind if you spend an extra 2000$ for high efficiency and you figure you will get payback after X amount of years that equipment must work without any repair cost during that payback period. Like having a paid for vehicle that gets 15 mpg and spending 20K on a new vehicle to get 25 mpg. You can buy a lot of gas for the paid for vehicle for 20K.

[cowtrimmer]

I replaced my old furnace (20 YO) with a Bryant 987M and a 286B heat pump 2 years ago. I'm pretty happy with it and when I do the cost analysis of my electric cost vs my lp cost the heat pump will maintain down to 31°. I'm sure its different all over depending on your kilowatt charge. I think heat pumps get a bad rap up here because people think they have a heat strip in all of them.

[Aggie]

2 houses with Bryant and both crappy. Have a Lennox now for 14 years, never needed to be charged but have 2 units and had to replace starter capacitor on one a few years back. Heard bad things about them but have been satisfied with them. Carrier are made in the town where I live and Bryant is their cheaper line from what I have been told.

[Susky Bass]

I installed a Ruud heat pump with 10kw heat strip 2 years ago and like it. It's very rare for my back up heat to kick in, but it's a heavily insulated home. Proper install is very inportant.

[BroWhoop]

Heat pumps are efficient enough to run down into the single digit temps. I wouldn't do it though. With the cost of propane I would do a dual fuel. Heat pumps for temps down into the 20's or so then use propane. Heat pumps maintaining indoor temp has as much to do with the house being efficient as the equipment.

[Perchpro]

A properly installed Goodman 96% furnace with a propane kit should last a long long time. I've done many for family and friends. Nobody calls about issues. I wouldn't install anything else. If your looking for more cooling efficiency, you can get the variable speed blower and a 16 seer condensing unit package. Your equipment cost will double with that option. I wouldn't pay any extra for a heat pump in mn. They like to waste energy and kill themselves when they run in cold climates.

[slaunch]

Being in Oklahoma our winters are not near as cold as yours are. We have a heat pump that works great and is very efficient but when it occasionally gets down below 15 degrees or so it will run a lot. We’ve had a night or two where it got it down to zero and it runs non stop at that temperature. It’s able to maintain the temperature but won’t shut off. And yes the heat coming out when it’s running definitely doesn’t feel warm but I’m hot natured so I’m perfectly happy with our electric bill usually runs in the 120-130 dollar range in the winter unless we have a real long cold snap and it’ll get up to 150 but we’re totally electric here.

[Old hurst]

Since we have the experts on here my question is can you integrate a gas unit with a Mitsubishi inverter type comp. with their whole house air handler?

[XingEyeballs]

Fellow Minnesota resident, work in the HVAC industry doing service and started my career in residential. Pass on the heat pump, they’re not worth it in our climate. For me, I service all brands and have no loyalty.

Recommend- Trane/American Standard, Lennox, Daikin
Pass- Amana, Bryant, Carrier, Goodman

Like anything, find a good dealer in your area and go with a line they support, when you have issues (new doesn’t mean bulletproof unfortunately) they will have support and know how.

Things to look at... variable speed ecm blower motor, hot surface ignition, 2 stage burner, 92% or better efficiency

PM if you’re looking for anything specific... also, get a second opinion on the heat exchanger if you haven’t already.