The effects of aquatic weed control spraying?

[bass_prodigy75]

Fish kills related to herbicide applications in large lakes are not an issue, fish kills typically on occur in small water bodies when submersed vegetation is completely topped out and a contact herbicide is used that causes rapid desiccation of vegetation that consumes oxygen. In these instances it is typically the fault of the applicator for not assessing the situation properly and treating 1/4 or 1/2 of the water body to prevent a rapid oxygen depletion. With that being said fish kills in the south are a common natural occurrence in small water bodies especially around golf courses where you have a large influx of fertilizer run off causing excessive algal blooms during the summer, a few overcast days and heavy rainfall can cause these shallow stratified lakes to turn over. Oxygen levels are typically not effected in large scale treatments especially if systemic herbicides are utilized(sonar, tradewind, galleon, to name a few). plant injury is very slow to develop and it can take several months for plants to fall out. Wind and wave action creates a lot of oxygen as well. Most people if you confront them personally are understanding and see the need for some level of vegetation management. A vegetation management plan has to take into account all stakeholders who utilize the lake (bream, crappie, catfishing, and pleasure boaters) although some bass fishermen may not agree in controlling an area that is all topped out hydrilla except for a narrow channel, if you can imagine that same area w/o topped out hydrilla and a moderate mix of emergent and submersed vegetation or scatter stumps etc. the amount of fishable water is increased substantially, a 100 acre pocket with a single channel the width of a boat 1/2 mile long can only support so many anglers fishing that edge, remove the topped out vegetation and it can open up 100 acres of fishable water capable of supporting a lot more fishermen. I am sure many of you have had similar experiences where you catch fish in one area one week and return a short time later only to find out that the fish have moved, re positioned, or may not be biting as well as before (it happens to me quite often).. Now with that being said if there were no signs or evidence that any management activities had been done the majority would come to the conclusion that the fish had probably moved, re-positioned, or weren't biting at that time.. however if this same scenario happened but there was some evidence of plant management the majority of anglers are quick to come to the conclusion that the spraying has ruined the area no questions about it this is what happened, when really that may not be the case... If possible i'd say try fishing some areas that have been managed with an open mind (its tough to maintain that confidence, just like experimenting with a new lure/technique) you may stumble onto an effective pattern that NO BODY will be utilizing.. I assure you that the majority of the time the fish are still in the area maybe on a channel swing, shallow cover, brush piles, stumps, etc. but when you fish with zero confidence you rarely catch fish. In reference to the muck removal project back in 2004 there is a good paper outlining this and some of the possible reasoning it silted in over the years, the current rate of sediment accumulation, etc. it is titled "Littoral sediment accumulation ten years aftermuck removal in Lake Tohopekaliga, Florida" and it can easily be found with a google search.

[rocknemo]

Maybe your not understanding the situation here. It's not that they are just spraying small areas of our lakes, they are spraying the entire lake. and when that all dies they keep spraying anything that they can find thats green, year after year after year. so there is no 'just fish some areas with an open mind' or 'experimenting with new techniques'. The fish are no longer there, when you remove the entire ecosystem and turn it into a stinkin mud hole all life goes away. It doesnt happen overnight but it does happen after years of overspraying.

[BassCatBrad]

Fish kills related to herbicide applications in large lakes are not an issue, fish kills typically on occur in small water bodies when submersed vegetation is completely topped out and a contact herbicide is used that causes rapid desiccation of vegetation that consumes oxygen. In these instances it is typically the fault of the applicator for not assessing the situation properly and treating 1/4 or 1/2 of the water body to prevent a rapid oxygen depletion. With that being said fish kills in the south are a common natural occurrence in small water bodies especially around golf courses where you have a large influx of fertilizer run off causing excessive algal blooms during the summer, a few overcast days and heavy rainfall can cause these shallow stratified lakes to turn over. Oxygen levels are typically not effected in large scale treatments especially if systemic herbicides are utilized(sonar, tradewind, galleon, to name a few). plant injury is very slow to develop and it can take several months for plants to fall out. Wind and wave action creates a lot of oxygen as well. Most people if you confront them personally are understanding and see the need for some level of vegetation management. A vegetation management plan has to take into account all stakeholders who utilize the lake (bream, crappie, catfishing, and pleasure boaters) although some bass fishermen may not agree in controlling an area that is all topped out hydrilla except for a narrow channel, if you can imagine that same area w/o topped out hydrilla and a moderate mix of emergent and submersed vegetation or scatter stumps etc. the amount of fishable water is increased substantially, a 100 acre pocket with a single channel the width of a boat 1/2 mile long can only support so many anglers fishing that edge, remove the topped out vegetation and it can open up 100 acres of fishable water capable of supporting a lot more fishermen. I am sure many of you have had similar experiences where you catch fish in one area one week and return a short time later only to find out that the fish have moved, re positioned, or may not be biting as well as before (it happens to me quite often).. Now with that being said if there were no signs or evidence that any management activities had been done the majority would come to the conclusion that the fish had probably moved, re-positioned, or weren't biting at that time.. however if this same scenario happened but there was some evidence of plant management the majority of anglers are quick to come to the conclusion that the spraying has ruined the area no questions about it this is what happened, when really that may not be the case... If possible i'd say try fishing some areas that have been managed with an open mind (its tough to maintain that confidence, just like experimenting with a new lure/technique) you may stumble onto an effective pattern that NO BODY will be utilizing.. I assure you that the majority of the time the fish are still in the area maybe on a channel swing, shallow cover, brush piles, stumps, etc. but when you fish with zero confidence you rarely catch fish. In reference to the muck removal project back in 2004 there is a good paper outlining this and some of the possible reasoning it silted in over the years, the current rate of sediment accumulation, etc. it is titled "Littoral sediment accumulation ten years aftermuck removal in Lake Tohopekaliga, Florida" and it can easily be found with a google search.

A quick search of Lake Griffin also in Florida on the Harris Chain will explain how the spray boat brain trust killed the lake from repeated spraying. This lake is the last lake on the chain when it comes to water flow, so it gets all the chemicals as they flow down stream. It is also shallower then Harris and Eustis. The repeated spray killed all off shore grasses (eel grass and hydrilla). The decaying weeds turned to muck. Muck covered the entire lake bottom. All fish populations died off. Then around 2006 a dreding project was started. They sucked the muck out of the canals and lake bottom, so the hard sandy bottom could be exposed. Then luckly the Orlando International Airport had a bird issue around the runways so they wanted to fill in some retention ponds. Those bass were relocated to Lake Griffin. They also stopped spraying for a few years. Thankfully lake has come back big time. Over the last 10 years. But now over the last 2 years they have started spraying again. Every couple months it seems. The lake is getting dirty again, water quality is poor, sediment is high and the off shore grass is dying off. I guess histoy will repeat itself. Not sure where they will find the bass to restock the lake next time or the money to dredge the muck this time around. I just wish someone with brains that wasn't getting their pockets lined by chemical company lobbyist money would take control on the spray program. Those same companies brought us Agent Orange, that was supposed to be safe for humans and the environment too.

[bass_prodigy75]

A quick search of Lake Griffin also in Florida on the Harris Chain will explain how the spray boat brain trust killed the lake from repeated spraying. This lake is the last lake on the chain when it comes to water flow, so it gets all the chemicals as they flow down stream. It is also shallower then Harris and Eustis. The repeated spray killed all off shore grasses (eel grass and hydrilla). The decaying weeds turned to muck. Muck covered the entire lake bottom. All fish populations died off. Then around 2006 a dreding project was started. They sucked the muck out of the canals and lake bottom, so the hard sandy bottom could be exposed. Then luckly the Orlando International Airport had a bird issue around the runways so they wanted to fill in some retention ponds. Those bass were relocated to Lake Griffin. They also stopped spraying for a few years. Thankfully lake has come back big time. Over the last 10 years. But now over the last 2 years they have started spraying again. Every couple months it seems. The lake is getting dirty again, water quality is poor, sediment is high and the off shore grass is dying off. I guess histoy will repeat itself. Not sure where they will find the bass to restock the lake next time or the money to dredge the muck this time around. I just wish someone with brains that wasn't getting their pockets lined by chemical company lobbyist money would take control on the spray program. Those same companies brought us Agent Orange, that was supposed to be safe for humans and the environment too.

I just think its interesting how every year people are pointing the finger at FWC for ruining all lakes in FL because of a management practice that has been going on in the state for the past 30 yrs.. yet these same lakes continue to produce bags over 30 lbs and organizations like BASS, FLW, and now MLF continue to put these lakes on the schedule every year. But in all seriousness is there any actual proof that who ever is in charge of the spray program is getting all this money? And which chemical company is supplying all this money? based off my knowledge most of the chemical companies that market aquatic herbicides are relatively small in comparison to the terrestrial market. Do you think monsanto or now Bayer (the makers of Roundup Custom the aquatic version of glyphosate) is so concerned with losing business in the FL aquatics market, that likely makes up <1% (if that) of their annual revenue, that they would have people lobbying money to the FL aquatic weed control program?

[BassCatBrad]

I just think its interesting how every year people are pointing the finger at FWC for ruining all lakes in FL because of a management practice that has been going on in the state for the past 30 yrs.. yet these same lakes continue to produce bags over 30 lbs and organizations like BASS, FLW, and now MLF continue to put these lakes on the schedule every year. But in all seriousness is there any actual proof that who ever is in charge of the spray program is getting all this money? And which chemical company is supplying all this money? based off my knowledge most of the chemical companies that market aquatic herbicides are relatively small in comparison to the terrestrial market. Do you think monsanto or now Bayer (the makers of Roundup Custom the aquatic version of glyphosate) is so concerned with losing business in the FL aquatics market, that likely makes up <1% (if that) of their annual revenue, that they would have people lobbying money to the FL aquatic weed control program?

When our government is involved with a multi-million dollar contract with a spray company that uses chemicals made by a billion dollar company that makes all kinds of chemicals, yes I think pockets are being lined. Then add to the fact quotas are involved with the human element I think some lakes get sprayed just to get sprayed. I have seen it first hand. Lake's Dexter and Woodruff were decimated 3 years ago due to over spraying which included shore line trees. The lakes have been dead for 3 years since this action. I'm more concerned with our government and spray companies not learning from past mistakes. History will repeat itself because the folks in charge are either too stupid to learn from past mistakes or worse yet they just don't care.

[TampaJim]

I just think its interesting how every year people are pointing the finger at FWC for ruining all lakes in FL because of a management practice that has been going on in the state for the past 30 yrs.. yet these same lakes continue to produce bags over 30 lbs and organizations like BASS, FLW, and now MLF continue to put these lakes on the schedule every year. But in all seriousness is there any actual proof that who ever is in charge of the spray program is getting all this money? And which chemical company is supplying all this money? based off my knowledge most of the chemical companies that market aquatic herbicides are relatively small in comparison to the terrestrial market. Do you think monsanto or now Bayer (the makers of Roundup Custom the aquatic version of glyphosate) is so concerned with losing business in the FL aquatics market, that likely makes up <1% (if that) of their annual revenue, that they would have people lobbying money to the FL aquatic weed control program?

My high school and college, Florida. My mom’s high school and college, Florida.
I’ve been fishing here for over half a century. It’s WAY, WAY worse nowadays.
I’m not about to consider that Bayer is getting rich off it, they are already loaded.
The companies doing the application, that’s another story altogether. Solid pay.
And they DO lobby, religiously. Our lakes are suffering greatly due to the spraying.
I’m not the only native raising up the issue. We know the difference, period.
We have way more impaired water than acceptable. Adding to it just isn’t good.
Green slime, red tide, etc. Our environment is fragile, it’s survival is at stake.

[rocknemo]

Dude I dont know what your deal is, but you are so out of touch with reality on whats going on here, you are sounding like a spokesman for the big chemical companies.

[rocknemo]

Dude I dont know what your deal is, but you are so out of touch with reality on whats going on here, you are sounding like a spokesman for the big chemical companies.

And this is for our LA friend

[Walleyeguy456]

Do the county's or DNR rely on the Weed Spraying Companies to be the Experts on spraying. That is how it works out up here. The companies need a Spray Permit. The countys and DNR just rubber stamp them saying the companies are the Experts.

[bass_prodigy75]

Dude I dont know what your deal is, but you are so out of touch with reality on whats going on here, you are sounding like a spokesman for the big chemical companies.

honestly I just like to throw a bunch of scenarios out there just to stir the pot a lil bit. In all honesty me and most of the folks on this page would probably get along pretty well in person. I know just enough about fisheries, aquatic plants, and lake management to reply to some of these threads w differing opinions and thoughts. I like to hear(read) the feedback.

[rocknemo]

honestly I just like to throw a bunch of scenarios out there just to stir the pot a lil bit. In all honesty me and most of the folks on this page would probably get along pretty well in person. I know just enough about fisheries, aquatic plants, and lake management to reply to some of these threads w differing opinions and thoughts. I like to hear(read) the feedback.

Well its not a joking matter for us that live here and have seen the devastation that has been done, I've been bass fishing here for 40 years and my lakes are totally unfishable from overspraying and they they are still out there spraying all year long. They have decimated Lake Kissimmee this year, one of states best fisheries, a 40 boat local tournement produced 9lbs for the winning weight last week, more than half the field didnt get their limit. That is unheard of for that lake especially with the local sticks.

[1hammerhead]

I always find these certain types amusing, so over educated that somehow everything dead, dying or rotten is somehow considered restoration...lol.

[Hez]

Well its not a joking matter for us that live here and have seen the devastation that has been done, I've been bass fishing here for 40 years and my lakes are totally unfishable from overspraying and they they are still out there spraying all year long. They have decimated Lake Kissimmee this year, one of states best fisheries, a 40 boat local tournement produced 9lbs for the winning weight last week, more than half the field didnt get their limit. That is unheard of for that lake especially with the local sticks.

Very similar results on Harris Chain last weekend...8 lbs was leading on Day 1....and these are local old timers that have been fishing this chain for years.

[kadas]

He just comes on here to stir the pot and see how many he can upset----sad

[TampaJim]

They have decimated Lake Kissimmee this year, one of states best fisheries, a 40 boat local tournement produced 9lbs for the winning weight last week, more than half the field didnt get their limit. That is unheard of for that lake especially with the local sticks.

Exactly. I sold my place on the Kissimmee Chain last summer (July 2017).
Saw the writing on the wall and decided not to become a statistic from it.
Used to be able to stand on my dock and usually get 15# in a few hours.
It's really, really sad. Between water level management and the spraying.

[bass_prodigy75]

He just comes on here to stir the pot and see how many he can upset----sad

I'm not trying to upset anybody, I am only giving multiple perspectives on the #1 topic this board is always discussing and I like to read alternative perspectives from the members of this forum. I apologize if I upset anyone by asking a couple questions. Does FWC not do electrofishing surveys and provide information about the health of these fisheries?

[esdbass]

I'm not trying to upset anybody, I am only giving multiple perspectives on the #1 topic this board is always discussing and I like to read alternative perspectives from the members of this forum. I apologize if I upset anyone by asking a couple questions. Does FWC not do electrofishing surveys and provide information about the health of these fisheries?

I got one question for you? Have you actually fished any of these bodies of water you are discussing as if you know 1st hand that the out cry's about the spraying is unfounded?

[rocknemo]

I'm not trying to upset anybody, I am only giving multiple perspectives on the #1 topic this board is always discussing and I like to read alternative perspectives from the members of this forum. I apologize if I upset anyone by asking a couple questions. Does FWC not do electrofishing surveys and provide information about the health of these fisheries?

Of course they don’t electroshock the fisheries, that would be solid evidence of their destruction. The fisherman see the results on the water and by local tourny results. My lakes were destroyed decades ago, it’s just the rest of the state is seeing the results recently, that’s why there is much more discussion.

[BaitFL]

Of course they don’t electroshock the fisheries, that would be solid evidence of their destruction. The fisherman see the results on the water and by local tourny results. My lakes were destroyed decades ago, it’s just the rest of the state is seeing the results recently, that’s why there is much more discussion.

Catch and release (i.e., fishing) is one method of assessing a waterbody, but contrary to your belief the FWC DOES electroshock lakes along with other methods to assess the fish community (not just bass) to determine catch rates, species richness and abundance. https://myfwc.com/research/freshwate...oring/project/ . You speak of fisheries being "decimated" but the electroshocking data shows that the Kissimmee Chain is one of the best fisheries with the highest catch rates in the state. The Harris Chain is pretty high up there too. The fishing in these lakes didn't just get good overnight as many comments over the last year have stated. These two chains have been managed intensively to keep hydrilla at maintenance levels for more than 25 years. The lakes DO have vegetation, its just not the vegetation that you want (i.e., hydrilla). So when you say the lakes have been "nuked" this is a very misleading statement. All lakes have bullrush, cattails, pickerelweed, Kissimmee grass, eelgrass, yellow lillies, and torpedo grass. And to be honest ALL of the hydrilla is never controlled.

As for your comment on the poor fishing tournament last weekend, I remember a cold front that came through the end of the week before that. You and I both know the fish get lockjaw when we get that kind of weather. Again this helps your "cause". Comments have also been made on how bad the Harris Chain is...the Bass team guys didn't seem to have a problem catching fish and most aren't from Florida? I could say the fishing in Florida has gotten bad because of overfishing, catch and release and mortality due to the fishing tournaments. But I know that the fish are there and why its called "fishing" and not "catching". I believe fishing tournaments have killed more fish than any herbicide application that was done correctly.

I've been following these spraying posts and comments for a while and have very rarely seen an credible (factual) information given. Most of the comments are observations and perceptions with little understanding of how, when, why, where the spraying is done. For example, X amount of herbicide has been sprayed into John's Lake!! What does that really mean? I put chlorine and acid in my pool but that doesn't mean I'm swimming in a toxic mix. The spraying is long list of things impacting the lakes, rivers and waterbodies in Florida but since it fits your agenda, its the easiest one to latch onto, and not to mention it could possibly affect human health and the environment. Interesting numbers from the census bureau out yesterday...Florida population 21.3 M, fifth highest growth rate from July 2017-18, third largest state in US. I'm sure that has no affect on the states growing (no pun intended) issues with land development, runoff and impacts to southeast and southwest Florida.

[Hez]

Catch and release (i.e., fishing) is one method of assessing a waterbody, but contrary to your belief the FWC DOES electroshock lakes along with other methods to assess the fish community (not just bass) to determine catch rates, species richness and abundance. https://myfwc.com/research/freshwate...oring/project/ . You speak of fisheries being "decimated" but the electroshocking data shows that the Kissimmee Chain is one of the best fisheries with the highest catch rates in the state. The Harris Chain is pretty high up there too. The fishing in these lakes didn't just get good overnight as many comments over the last year have stated. These two chains have been managed intensively to keep hydrilla at maintenance levels for more than 25 years. The lakes DO have vegetation, its just not the vegetation that you want (i.e., hydrilla). So when you say the lakes have been "nuked" this is a very misleading statement. All lakes have bullrush, cattails, pickerelweed, Kissimmee grass, eelgrass, yellow lillies, and torpedo grass. And to be honest ALL of the hydrilla is never controlled.

As for your comment on the poor fishing tournament last weekend, I remember a cold front that came through the end of the week before that. You and I both know the fish get lockjaw when we get that kind of weather. Again this helps your "cause". Comments have also been made on how bad the Harris Chain is...the Bass team guys didn't seem to have a problem catching fish and most aren't from Florida? I could say the fishing in Florida has gotten bad because of overfishing, catch and release and mortality due to the fishing tournaments. But I know that the fish are there and why its called "fishing" and not "catching". I believe fishing tournaments have killed more fish than any herbicide application that was done correctly.

I've been following these spraying posts and comments for a while and have very rarely seen an credible (factual) information given. Most of the comments are observations and perceptions with little understanding of how, when, why, where the spraying is done. For example, X amount of herbicide has been sprayed into John's Lake!! What does that really mean? I put chlorine and acid in my pool but that doesn't mean I'm swimming in a toxic mix. The spraying is long list of things impacting the lakes, rivers and waterbodies in Florida but since it fits your agenda, its the easiest one to latch onto, and not to mention it could possibly affect human health and the environment. Interesting numbers from the census bureau out yesterday...Florida population 21.3 M, fifth highest growth rate from July 2017-18, third largest state in US. I'm sure that has no affect on the states growing (no pun intended) issues with land development, runoff and impacts to southeast and southwest Florida.

It's being documented how these applicators are over-spraying, spraying native plants, and spraying open water just meet their quota. I want to share with you an excerpt from an ex-applicator that explains a lot:

EXCERPTS FROM AN AA SPRAYER
Yesterday I had the privilege to speak for well over an hour with a former AA sprayboat applicator. I promised to keep his anonymity, but I was given permission to share his experiences. This gentleman worked out of the Lake Port AA office spraying on Harney Pond,Little Grassy,Kings Bar, to Buckhead areas ,including canals leading to Roland's and Mary Ann's place.

His like the overwhelming majority was a short lived employment lasting about five months. During the short time employment he witnessed unprecedented turnover, Ten operators came and left that one office, in that time period, including several long time employees. "When people really see what they are doing their conscious will not allow them to continue".

I guess this helps explain the continuous adds on their web and Facebook pages for "applicators wanted". These are not good, safe or well paying jobs. Two years ago starting pay was $ 9 per hour, now because of demand it is $ 13

"Less than $500 take home to kill nature and ourselves"

"Man with over 16 years ,only making $18 an hr"

Contrary to popular belief , these sprayers DO NOT get paid by the gallon. However Ed Harris FWC at hydrillia meeting on Orange Lake five weeks ago,openly admitted that these spray company's are reimbursed "by the gallon" for chemicals used.

But there is a kicker; sprayers are given daily quotas. The boats are rigged with chemtainers that hold exactly 100 gallons, to make mixing and measuring an easier process.Applicators are encouraged in order to stay in "good standing" to apply 10-12 containers per day ( 1000 to 1200 gallons, per boat ,per day) !!

New applicators are not required to have state mandated Applicators Licenses, they are given an extended grace period ,and are covered as long as they spray along side a Licensed operator (reasonable explanation for why I always see them spray in pairs). From another totally reliable source, father of the man that gives monthly , two day training to new AA applicators, says the average new employee last "90 " days.

This means that a large percentage is not well trained or even ever licensed , for that matter.

This individual quotes " running over animals especially nests is considered "part of the game when spraying on required grid systems" "this happens all day ,every day"

The inside terminology for a days work is "going to level the lake" !!

Also the new method ,with newly rigged boats,I have heard of but never personally witnessed is called "scorching hydrilla" where boats are rigged with a underwater dispensing gizmo to inject chemicals near the bottom ,directly to the roots.

This person has also had awful experiences with different chemicals ,he stated that mixing of different chemicals is routine as well as other bonding and dispersing chemicals.

All fisherman might appreciate this: after leaving his bucket in the truck one morning, he had to take care of his morning duties, sat back over the narrow airboat gunnels,and popped up two seconds later,already burning from dried overspray on the boat. It burned thru his skin, took eight weeks of torture to heal and has a long time reminder.

On a second occasion, straight chemical got on his shirt sleeve , rinsed immediately ,and burned completely thru his skin in seconds, requiring another lengthy recovery.

"Some of this stuff is way worse than they say, with some chemicals ,stuff is scorched dead in one hour"

After years of pubic complaint of AA sprayers "dumping their tanks" at the end of the day ( I have witnessed this many ,many times), because of weather or to finish the quota ,AA Applicators are instructed to "find a spot, and pump it over" !

After being required by weather to do this one day, he sat I one secluded area,pumped over and "specks,gillies, and shiners floated to the surface all around him. He then took this to a supervisor and was told "I've never seen this ,don't worry about it"

This mans spirit truly breaks for the damage he has caused and the total destruction "leveling of the lake" he knows happens daily.

His final straw was continually having to dig out garbage dumped in the back of his truck, having to hold his head down to fill up, get lunch, or be in public.But his final straw was spraying at Roland's, Roland pulled up in his rig, chewed him upside down, inside out for ten minutes " you are killing EVERYTHING on the F-ING lake" !!

This man is a sportsman, fisherman and loves his state. He is courageous and deserves thanks from every Floridian. I believe every word !

- Pastor Scott Wilson - https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2137237459666762&id=10000 1415871130