Security guard saves lives and is killed for his efforts.

[imbatman]

Anyone consider this as one reason fewer people are willing to help in violent situations? Regardless of the right or wrong but here as a CCW it will make me think twice if it is not my life on the line (i.e. I am being attacked versus someone near that I could or could not help)

Society has created an atmosphere of "every man/women for themselves" and that has been contributed to by both citizens and LE if we are truly honest with ourselves.

I still get a kick out of the "you haven't done it crowd" You read most threads and we have people telling how our govt does things wrong but has never held a govt position. We have jurys making judgments and some of them have never held a gun. If we stuck to that we would all be hypocrites!!!

[grandbassslayer]

I always enjoy these threads. Especially the input from those who never worked the streets...

Just my opinion, but citizens opinion is more important than those that protect and serve.

[188Musky]

There are far more than just two lives destroyed. The ripple effect of this is far reaching.

True.

[Matt1212]

My rub w/ Hugo is the "know all attitude". He keeps saying it's fixable, but offers know fixes. He says police "training and protocol" as if he knows police training and protocol. Maybe he is an LEO, I don't know, but he has yet to share the "easy fix". Arm-chair

[Riccochet]

When you have a certain bunch in the streets chanting F#&k the police, pigs in a balnket, fry em like bacon, etc. Then showing zero respect for the LEO, shooting them while sitting in their cars, and ambushing them on fake calls, what do you expect form the guys trying to do a job? They have never been a disrespected as much as they have since 2014 to the present. The media has been demonizing them for every move they make, right or wrong. When they have been right, but called out in the media to be investigated and found to be right, the media never apologizes to clear their name. They move on to the next polarizing story, (never let a disaster go to waste) to stir up chit even more. The LEO should be scared when you have groups calling for them to be killed in the streets just for wearing blue. It's truly a shame that the police have to deal with this on a daily basis.

Don't act like some officers don't bring this attitude on themselves. Not when they're caught on their own body cameras planting drugs to arrest innocent people. Or an entire documentary about departments all over the country refusing to take complaints, even threatening those attempting to make complaints.

When the police start policing their own I think the general public attitudes will change. If it does happen it rarely makes the news.

[JerryT]

I actually think mandatory ride a longs for all police haters would help .. I’ve been on two plan on going more .. amazing how when your sitting in a police car downtown you really start wondering about things .. like the guy hanging out 5 feet behind the car acting odd ... the guy who rolls by you a few times slow staring at you ... Then going to a call in a bad neighborhood where no one is on your side


Eye opening experience for sure ... could not pay me to do that everyday

[c rig]

Hard to demilitarize the force when they are made up of primarily military vets.

Actually, the research I’ve seen shows that’s not true. Nationwide, veterans make up only about 19% of all LEO’s in this country.

And interestingly, research so far is showing so far that vets statistically will be involved in more LEO shootings than non vets.

[hugo_stiglitz]

My rub w/ Hugo is the "know all attitude". He keeps saying it's fixable, but offers know fixes. He says police "training and protocol" as if he knows police training and protocol. Maybe he is an LEO, I don't know, but he has yet to share the "easy fix". Arm-chair

Any non-cop recommendation is dismissed as too dangerous for the officer. Nothing that increases risk to officers will be accepted because that is mission 1. That's the first thing that has to change to lower these accidental shootings.

[fishinarc]

.

[USMC2112]

Hugo .. you ever go on a ride a long ?? I am sure they offer it in your area

I am guessing he has, but where he sat you can't open the doors from the inside.

[HatfieldHog]

I have taken and sat through several CCW training's, and our trainer has told us repeatedly, that if you are involved in a shooting, and the police arrive at the scene, put the weapon down and put your hands in the air and identify yourself when they come through the door. Our trainer is a veteran police officer and he said that we should never be holding a gun when the police enter the room.

See ya

[imbatman]

I have taken and sat through several CCW training's, and our trainer has told us repeatedly, that if you are involved in a shooting, and the police arrive at the scene, put the weapon down and put your hands in the air and identify yourself when they come through the door. Our trainer is a veteran police officer and he said that we should never be holding a gun when the police enter the room.

See ya

I think in most cases that is correct but if someone is a CCW and has someone at gun point because the guy has a gun in his belt but his hands up I don't think it would be good for the approaching officers or the CCW holder for the gun to be lowered any sooner than it has to be. Still judgments have to be made and that is exactly why things like this will never go away. We have to realize there are costs to the amount of freedom we have and perfection at all times is impossible.

[hugo_stiglitz]

I think in most cases that is correct but if someone is a CCW and has someone at gun point because the guy has a gun in his belt but his hands up I don't think it would be good for the approaching officers or the CCW holder for the gun to be lowered any sooner than it has to be. Still judgments have to be made and that is exactly why things like this will never go away. We have to realize there are costs to the amount of freedom we have and perfection at all times is impossible.

Even if this cop followed the book to the letter in this shooting it gives us two choices. 1. Admit that there actually is a number of innocent lives lost that is acceptable in order to ensure officer safety is Paramount. Or 2. Change the book to try and limit such shootings from occurring.

[imbatman]

Even if this cop followed the book to the letter in this shooting it gives us two choices. 1. Admit that there actually is a number of innocent lives lost that is acceptable in order to ensure officer safety is Paramount. Or 2. Change the book to try and limit such shootings from occurring.

Agreed but totally eliminating the issue is pretty much impossible wouldn't you say?

[fishinarc]

.

[hugo_stiglitz]

Agreed but totally eliminating the issue is pretty much impossible wouldn't you say?

Total elimination is impossible, there's always a gremlin in the mix. It's possible eyewitnesses are right and he shot a black man with a gun and no evaluation beyond that, that can only be stopped by a court and a jury. Still evaluation and criticism should be encouraged instead it is shouted down and attacked. An odd position to take if every human life matters, no?

[Tundah]

Don't act like some officers don't bring this attitude on themselves. Not when they're caught on their own body cameras planting drugs to arrest innocent people. Or an entire documentary about departments all over the country refusing to take complaints, even threatening those attempting to make complaints.

When the police start policing their own I think the general public attitudes will change. If it does happen it rarely makes the news.

You must have different media outlets up there. For the 4 years I worked in the Orlando region, every bad shoot, excessive force, DUI, grand theft, and domestic battery involving an officer was plastered on the news from arrest through the judicial process.

To your previous point, yes there are bad apples that escalate situations, hated when they rolled up on a scene. But in my opinion your rampant take on widespread corruption was not my experience for the 10 years I worked in central Florida. Most Chiefs and Sheriffs have less tolerance than ever on those bad nuts because their job is on the line with the public awareness of these situations.

Of the 45ish agencies I interacted with through task forces and investigations I only saw one that I would label corrupt as you described, Fruitland Park PD. Of course they’re so small you’d miss it you blinked driving through town.

[imbatman]

[/B]
You must have different media outlets up there. For the 4 years I worked in the Orlando region, every bad shoot, excessive force, DUI, grand theft, and domestic battery involving an officer was plastered on the news from arrest through the judicial process.

To your previous point, yes there are bad apples that escalate situations, hated when they rolled up on a scene. But in my opinion your rampant take on widespread corruption was not my experience for the 10 years I worked in central Florida. Most Chiefs and Sheriffs have less tolerance than ever on those bad nuts because their job is on the line with the public awareness of these situations.

Of the 45ish agencies I interacted with through task forces and investigations I only saw one that I would label corrupt as you described, Fruitland Park PD. Of course they’re so small you’d miss it you blinked driving through town.

Not disputing your facts but lets not overlook that frequently the media outlets have had to sue LE to get body/dash cam footage released so for whatever the reason LE has seemed to try to keep certain things from the public which adds to the skepticism.

[Riccochet]

[/B]
You must have different media outlets up there. For the 4 years I worked in the Orlando region, every bad shoot, excessive force, DUI, grand theft, and domestic battery involving an officer was plastered on the news from arrest through the judicial process.

To your previous point, yes there are bad apples that escalate situations, hated when they rolled up on a scene. But in my opinion your rampant take on widespread corruption was not my experience for the 10 years I worked in central Florida. Most Chiefs and Sheriffs have less tolerance than ever on those bad nuts because their job is on the line with the public awareness of these situations.

Of the 45ish agencies I interacted with through task forces and investigations I only saw one that I would label corrupt as you described, Fruitland Park PD. Of course they’re so small you’d miss it you blinked driving through town.

Hits the news when they are caught. Where are the articles of police turning in other police for on the job corruption? Pretty rare, but there are an estimated over 100,000 people sitting in prison for crimes they didn't commit.

A good place to start cleaning up the system would be to remove the incentives on arrest and conviction statistics. It won't stop innocent people from dying, which is what this thread is about. Not sure how that can be rectified, if at all. Shit happens. To all of us. Poor judgement exists in everyone. That's being human.

[Tundah]

Hits the news when they are caught. Where are the articles of police turning in other police for on the job corruption? Pretty rare, but there are an estimated over 100,000 people sitting in prison for crimes they didn't commit.

A good place to start cleaning up the system would be to remove the incentives on arrest and conviction statistics. It won't stop innocent people from dying, which is what this thread is about. Not sure how that can be rectified, if at all. Shit happens. To all of us. Poor judgement exists in everyone. That's being human.

Officers turning in officers for misconduct leads down two potential paths. If the misconduct rises to a criminal complaint, there will be press involved at some point. However if the misconduct does not rise to the criminal level, an internal administrative review is completed. At least in a Florida that is all public record, if any media or Joe Blow off the street wants to see it.

I really cant speak about arrest incentives as the majority of my career was spent in major crimes and crimes against children. Only incentive there is to save a child from abuse and exploitation. I know it’s different on the narcotics side of the house and that’s a whole different can of worms I had no interest in.