Lithium batteries

[jrspop]

Is there a way to test lithium batteries like you would a lead cell or agm?

[Lou r Pitcher]

You cannot accurately, (as some Lithium battery owners on this forum quote how little their LiOn batteries are discharged at the end of the day,) measure discharge levels using a trolling motor's battery capacity indicator or a common battery capacity gauge.

Those devices today are both based on a lead acid batteries voltage discharge curves and Lithium ion voltages are quite different. The LiOn battery voltage curve is very flat and would show significant remaining charge even when it is about to be dead.

[Casslaw]

I know on my radio controlled stuff that uses lithium ion batteries that only the charger shows anything. LiIon batteries run at 100% power til they get to 80% discharged then they fall flat on their butt.

The fluctuation of voltage reading is very small between fully charged and dead. When I switched to them in my R/C stuff the charger was super expensive even thought the batteries are light as a feather.

[jrspop]

I guess my question, and excuse my ignorance, it was more is there a way to test if they are going bad, like a lead battery might have a bad cell, how do you know if a lithium has run its course?

[Lou r Pitcher]

Its a valid and good question.

Any of the key battery specifications (CCAs, Amp-hours, Reserve Capacity) can be determined with some setup of some expensive electronics lab equipment. The inexpensive % of discharge gauges and load testers we now use often on our lead acids are not going to give a good reading and provide an accurate in/out of spec indication.

So the question you probably wish to know is what does a user have available at low cost to make needed measurements.

That's a question for the Lithium ion makers that are going to want to know the answer before agreeing to warranty a suspect failed LiOn. We can't be going without use of the batteries and be happy to pay to ship suspect batteries back to a regional/national distributor to evaluate each time they become discharged fully too soon and go dead.

[flatsboy]

You cannot accurately, (as some Lithium battery owners on this forum quote how little their LiOn batteries are discharged at the end of the day,) measure discharge levels using a trolling motor's battery capacity indicator or a common battery capacity gauge.

Those devices today are both based on a lead acid batteries voltage discharge curves and Lithium ion voltages are quite different. The LiOn battery voltage curve is very flat and would show significant remaining charge even when it is about to be dead.

Once again some of your information is incorrect. With the Victron Energy Battery Monitor which I have installed since day one. This unit come with default settings for lead acid and AGM batteries. But this wonderful beautiful multi functional product system which ins't cheap was designed and can be configured to accurately monitor Lithium Batteries with (Life PO4 ) cells and or solar usage once the internal setting are changed per the manual.
Hope this helps.

[Lou r Pitcher]

Yes, I am familiar with the Victron instrument and it is respected and appears to have the means needed to evaluate LiOn capacity.

The Victron you are using though is not at all a common battery discharge gauge and is very rarely found on a recreational bass boat due to the OTS unavailability and high cost.

The battery discharge gauges which are often available and sold in the local sporting goods or boating dealer store are only for lead acid batteries. They are not settable and only using battery voltage (lead acid) as the sole means to assess battery charge state.

The trolling motor's battery condition indicators (sometimes quoted by some LiOn battery owners on this forum incorrectly stating they leave the water having used only a small % of their LiOn battery capacity) are like the inexpensive battery gauges, only measure voltage and so are only accurate for Lead Acid batteries.

Though the LiOn boater may see at the end of the day perhaps a 50% or so charge level indicated on such types of indicators, because their LiOn's discharge voltages are so different, the discharge curve's shape is so much flatter and the needed temp comps are not being considered, they really have little knowledge of the remaining charge on their LiOn.

[flatsboy]

Well for one I'n not most and pride myself in technology and embrace and research it as I did with the Lithium batteries for marine use before I made my purchase.
If and when purchasing Lithium batteries most company's recommend this to the buyer's It's recommended listed on the Relion & Lithium Pro's site and or by the salesman at the point of sale. The people I know who's run these batteries have purchased this gauge. It's a investment but well worth the extra $150 to $200 for the gauge setup.
I feel if you had the opportunity to trial/demo a set for your boat or decide to make the investment and use them instead of always finding every little negative way to discredit lithium Ion Batteries on this forum. You would embrace them. I'm a firm believer in the proof is how they perform in the real world under the conditions and not just on paper or calculator and over the last 3.5 years I've proven this.
Have a great day!

[kry29]

I will take a trial set and if they work as claimed I would make that purchase.

[Lou r Pitcher]

Thanks for suggestion to 'try' out Lithiums. I'm always learning. I'd expect most potential buyers considering Lithium batteries from the newly introduced startup battery 'assemblers' may not understand or care who actually designs, manufacturers and knows the specifications of the lithiums (cells) being used.

As a former U.S. mgr/dir. of product engineering for a well known electronics corporation, I am fortunate to have had access to and been involved with using lithium technology for quite a number of years (actually decades).

That dates back almost to when my employer manufactured the 1st commercial lithium battery cell and much of the time since,when last I looked, had produced well over a billion Lithiums. (that's with a B).

I have very much embraced Lithium technology and will for its introduction into the rec boat industry provided it matures to be at the point where it is fully safe, its' capabilities are not being overly stated, the buyer's purchases are backed up by knowledgeable and established reputable companies and that there is not eminent changes in the industry soon compromising the buyer's satisfaction with their expensive investment .

[flatsboy]

By that time we all may be all sipping out of straws and have someone wipe our drool or 6 feet under!

[jrspop]

Once again some of your information is incorrect. With the Victron Energy Battery Monitor which I have installed since day one. This unit come with default settings for lead acid and AGM batteries. But this wonderful beautiful multi functional product system which ins't cheap was designed and can be configured to accurately monitor Lithium Batteries with (Life PO4 ) cells and or solar usage once the internal setting are changed per the manual.
Hope this helps.

This battery monitor can be set by the user (me) to properly evaluate a lithium battery?

[flatsboy]

This battery monitor can be set by the user (me) to properly evaluate a lithium battery?

Yes

[jrspop]

OK, I’ll have to get one. Here is my issue. I have a dual pro charger, the first bank is calibrated to my starting battery. Two weeks ago it was showing fully charged, went out on the water and after about a half a day everything went completely dead. Put a jumper cable to a trolling battery and was able to start the motor. Come to find out a wire had come off the alternator. Last night fooling with my jack plate, I left the key on accident, this morning the battery was completely dead. I have left the key on before, and it did not go completely dead. I think this battery is losing its mojo Or may have lost it. That’s why I was asking if there is a way to test the battery to see if it is any good.