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  1. Member
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    #21
    It is hard to compare the 2 types since there is a 20 year difference in technology. It will be interesting to see how the V8 compares to the G2. Still not apples to apples since it is two different mfg's with different philosophies

    The only draw back that might be an issue is the late in life serviceability. Most of the extra, ultra light castings used in the automotive industry are not rebuildable. Does not matter if it is a coated or a sleeved cylinder.

    As far as output is concerned the torque curve will be the main factor. Not just the peak numbers. Two strokes are notorious for having good midrange torque. The ratio for displacement from 4 to 2 stroke is 1.7 to 1. But that also depends on the cost factor and service life expectancy.
    Last edited by leo13; 05-20-2018 at 05:38 PM.

  2. Member berudd's Avatar
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by 22R View Post
    Well, umm yeah now imagine a 4.6 V-8 two stroke..... The new motors are impressive but look at how much more motor you have to have to match the performance of a two stroke.

    22R
    Sorry, but that is irrelevant. In nearly all use cases, the motor needs fit into a certain HP classification, ie 250. So what if it does it with 4.6 liters or if a comparably sized 2 stoke would make more. You could but it on a boat rated for a 250 if it did. It weighs the same as the 2 stoke and sounds like it will make better power. My guess is your one of the guys that just doesn’t want to accept the new stuff.
    Bruce
    2019 20 TRX Patriot
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  3. Member berudd's Avatar
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by 22R View Post
    Not whining just stating facts that you need double the displacement on a 4 to match a 2. I am impressed by what Merc has done just imagine had they worked this hard to lighten the 2 strokes. BRP must have a reason for sticking with the 2 stroke and we will see as the future unfolds what happens. I am not anti 4 stroke I love them in my truck, car and ZTR but it is hard to beat a lightweight and simplicity of a 2 stroke on weedeaters, chainsaws and outboards where weight is critical. I mean Merc did seem to copy the ugly G2 exterior design a lot of people howled about who knows where the may follow BRP next ?? :)

    22R
    Again, irrelevant and wrong. It’s not double the displacement. And even if it was, if the weight was the same that’s what matters. I’m sure BRP has a reason but don’t assume its because they think 2 stroke is better. Maybe they don’t have the proper expertise.
    Bruce
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  4. BBC SPONSOR
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    #24

  5. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
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    #25
    There's a LOT of speculation and application of yesterday's rules above.

    While some of it was sound information last year, and some of it still stands true today, it is quite honestly not possible to be determining the types of items discussed here, because there is literally NO data (not inadequate data, there simply is NONE).

    The old theory of "double displacement" no longer applies. Hasn't for a long time- because we now have to look at numerous other factors as well.

    Let's wait for some real-world numbers from a few folks... I expect we're going to be hearing from some new owners pretty quickly.


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
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  6. Member lpugh's Avatar
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by EuropeanAM View Post
    There's a LOT of speculation and application of yesterday's rules above.

    While some of it was sound information last year, and some of it still stands true today, it is quite honestly not possible to be determining the types of items discussed here, because there is literally NO data (not inadequate data, there simply is NONE).

    The old theory of "double displacement" no longer applies. Hasn't for a long time- because we now have to look at numerous other factors as well.

    Let's wait for some real-world numbers from a few folks... I expect we're going to be hearing from some new owners pretty quickly.
    Don I am really curious about this motor:
    1. Will the variable cam timing be on both intake and exhaust
    2. Will it utilize O2 sensors to provide for closed loop fuel control
    3. Will the long runner intake be variable, switching to shorter runner length at high RPM
    4. What is the expected valve spring life to prevent failure
    5. Is it an interference motor, will there be piston and valve damage if the belt breaks or is it chain drive
    6. What is the warranty and can it be extended

    Oh, how's that variable port timing working out on those 2 strokes
    Based on improvement I see every year in the Auto industry, it wont be long before the 4 strokes totally overcomes the HP to weight advantage
    Last edited by lpugh; 05-21-2018 at 11:09 PM.
    Thank You Leon Pugh

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    #27
    Great points Lpugh ! Don is 100% correct ! (as usual). 22R....no, 4 strokes don't need to be double the displacement for a host of reasons. Here's a quick few: 1) our 2-strokes don't run expansion chamber exhaust and we loose about 30% of our 'potential' HP right there. 2) length of effective power stroke is MUCH shorter on a 2 stroke than a modern 4-stroke. 2 strokes have very short crank rotation angles before the fixed exhaust port opens where as a modern 4-stroke has a longer rod/better rod angle and a longer period (more crankshaft rotation angle) to 'use' the pressures from the power stroke. This means the thermal efficiency of the modern 4-stroke is significantly higher. What all that engineering info means is this: Many people forget that 'torque' is what you feel and HP is simply a calculation of torque*RPM/5250. While the HP may still be 250 at peak....it's the overall torque curve of a modern 4-stroke that is superior in every way. It's not even close !!! It has much more 'area under the curve' (ie...more torque at every point) These new engines have a lot more usable power everywhere ! It's a game changer !!!
    Last edited by FastCat04; 05-22-2018 at 06:21 AM.
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  8. Member 22R's Avatar
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    #28
    I am not trying to change anyone's mind and I have said that they are impressive. If you want to spend 25-30K on a motor only I am happy for ya and I will even give a friendly wave to ya when I pass ya in my 27 year old two stroke 150. Buy all the extended warranty you guys can afford till we see how they hold together. Enjoy em !

    22R



    Allison XB2002 / Merc 150 XR6

  9. fish8503@yahoo.com GOTTA BIG SACK's Avatar
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    #29
    Just an example when the SHO came out nobody was going out of they’re way to buy HPDI’s anymore. Hardly see one on the water anymore either.
    2021 Skeeter ZX150
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  10. Member berudd's Avatar
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GOTTA BIG SACK View Post
    Just an example when the SHO came out nobody was going out of they’re way to buy HPDI’s anymore. Hardly see one on the water anymore either.
    Yeah, I never see them. Except on my dad's boat. And four of the guys that fish our tournaments. ;)
    Bruce
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  11. Member 2500's Avatar
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by 22R View Post
    I am not trying to change anyone's mind and I have said that they are impressive. If you want to spend 25-30K on a motor only I am happy for ya and I will even give a friendly wave to ya when I pass ya in my 27 year old two stroke 150. Buy all the extended warranty you guys can afford till we see how they hold together. Enjoy em !

    22R
    I came out of a 21XDC Bullet, with a 250XS loaded would run. I never thought a 4 stroke would perform, BUT I ordered a Ranger Z521C with a 250 Verado Pro. It is awesome. I studied the Verado for year or so and Don helped me understand the 4 stroke Verado. I am running a Ranger and in the Ranger world my boat is faster overall on holeshot, mid range power punch, top end running. again against same boat and others have G2, SHO, ProXS, and My Verado wins all the time. I will tell you this this new motor is totally different than the Verado L6 platform but Merc has done homework and the game is now in another field. They will be many surprised by the power and overall power this motor makes. the cost is very close to the current 2 strokes/4 strokes and maybe cheaper depending on mechanical rigging or DTS /Verado rigging.
    The old motors are fun and all but this new power plant is a motor to drive to believe
    JEFF MURRAY USMC
    RANGER Z521C & 15 VERADO PRO 250
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  12. Member
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by 22R View Post
    I am not trying to change anyone's mind and I have said that they are impressive. If you want to spend 25-30K on a motor only I am happy for ya and I will even give a friendly wave to ya when I pass ya in my 27 year old two stroke 150. Buy all the extended warranty you guys can afford till we see how they hold together. Enjoy em !

    22R
    Is your old XR6150 really a 150 lol
    Allison XB21 Prosport Mercury Racing 250XS with a 1.75 Sporty

  13. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by lpugh View Post
    Don I am really curious about this motor:
    1. Will the variable cam timing be on both intake and exhaust
    2. Will it utilize O2 sensors to provide for closed loop fuel control
    3. Will the long runner intake be variable, switching to shorter runner length at high RPM
    4. What is the expected valve spring life to prevent failure
    5. Is it an interference motor, will there be piston and valve damage if the belt breaks or is it chain drive
    6. What is the warranty and can it be extended

    Oh, how's that variable port timing working out on those 2 strokes
    Based on improvement I see every year in the Auto industry, it wont be long before the 4 strokes totally overcomes the HP to weight advantage
    1. NOT Variable Cam Timing.
    2. Yes. Wide-band O2 Sensor in system.
    3. Fixed- does not change in length (other than extension by opening throttle valve)
    4. No set number here. Be quite surprised to see any number of failures there, even in the thousands of hours.
    5. Chain Driven.
    6. 3 Years- and can be extended up to 5 additional years (RACING limited to 3 additional years).


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by lpugh View Post
    Don I am really curious about this motor:

    5. Is it an interference motor, will there be piston and valve damage if the belt breaks or is it chain drive
    Virtually every modern performance engine will be interference.

  15. Member
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    #35
    I went from a Pro XS to a SHO. I was amazed by the difference in performance in all categories. I'm glad Mercury went to a 4 stroke. 4 stroke is technology is far superior.

  16. #36
    G2>SHO

  17. Member
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    #37
    First, I like both but prefer a 2 stroke for a lot of things.

    I always get a kick out of the four stroke guys going to the "We have to compare HP to HP..." which immediately negates the advantage the 2 stroke has of a power stroke every revolution.
    Then they point to how the weight has decreased and power improved on the 4 strokes BY DEVELOPMENT AND TECHNOLOGY, which HAS NOT BEEN DONE to the same extent to the 2 strokes.
    And lastly "2 strokes wear out faster". Well duh. Twice as many power strokes. When do you think the most wear occurs? ON THE POWER STROKE!

    Everything got geared for four strokes and most manufacturers do not see a reason to switch development over to two strokes. There are always some that will buck the system. KTM of motorcycle fame is one of them. The new 2 strokes (motorcycles) don't have the narrow power band of years past and are clean burning. Tons of bottom end torque. Same with the winter sports folks. Lot's of two strokes there. I won't get into big trucks as weight is not a factor there and they are diesel.

    Remember the saying, "4 strokes have one cycle for power and one for wearing out". Lot's more parts to wear out, generally more expensive to repair, and STILL generally heavier. When the tech catches up on the 2 strokes, and it will, then this discussion will change again.

  18. Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado Moderator EuropeanAM's Avatar
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    #38
    There's only one company in the 2-stroke game now... as for "tech catching up"... that was 20 years ago. DFI technology hit the market back in the '97 era, and has been steadily improved, cleaned up, and leaned until mean ever since.

    Those of you that have been around for years know that I love my 2-strokes... I've made a meager but adequate living on them, too.

    There will be plenty of them around for the die-hards, for many years to come.


    Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
    Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
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  19. Member
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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by EuropeanAM View Post
    There's only one company in the 2-stroke game now... as for "tech catching up"... that was 20 years ago. DFI technology hit the market back in the '97 era, and has been steadily improved, cleaned up, and leaned until mean ever since.

    Those of you that have been around for years know that I love my 2-strokes... I've made a meager but adequate living on them, too.

    There will be plenty of them around for the die-hards, for many years to come.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I saw an add speaking of the port fuel injection for the new four strokes, not DFI.

    My question is what are the valve clearance adjustment intervals if any? Hydraulic adjusters? Pic I saw looked like shim-bucket adjusters. If shim-bucket will cams need to be removed for adjustment?

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    #40
    DFI is on it's way out. Most auto designs are going to EFI and DFI but that will not last.

    Most modern engines are hydraulic and the few auto engines that are not usually have an adjustment interval over 2khrs.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFSims View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I saw an add speaking of the port fuel injection for the new four strokes, not DFI.

    My question is what are the valve clearance adjustment intervals if any? Hydraulic adjusters? Pic I saw looked like shim-bucket adjusters. If shim-bucket will cams need to be removed for adjustment?

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