Thread: Iran/ Israel

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  1. Banned
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    #201
    Quote Originally Posted by fishinFamily View Post
    Pretty sure that the “State” is the proponent.... not Churches! I hate that in our Country we so often use our freedom to practice Religion to “ban” religion.
    I'm pretty sure that most "churches" and organized religious movements have taken a pretty firm stand on not paying taxes. Taxation doesn't have anything to do with banning religion so its pretty hard for religion to play the "Victim" in your scenario.

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    #202
    Our constitution says nothing about separation of church and state. Says government shall make no laws abridging freedom of religions. I think lol. I will say most small churches would struggle to keep the doors open if they weren't tax exempt

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    #203
    Quote Originally Posted by cowtrimmer View Post
    I'm pretty sure that most "churches" and organized religious movements have taken a pretty firm stand on not paying taxes. Taxation doesn't have anything to do with banning religion so its pretty hard for religion to play the "Victim" in your scenario.
    I do not recall claiming a church was a victim. Merely stating the fact that our “Separation of church and state” (your original words) are something that was instituted by the state (the United States) - not something that churches pushed or asked for.

    Historically Church and State were essentially one in the same. Separating them was one of the many things our Country did to limit the power of government.

  4. Member Quillback's Avatar
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    #204
    I believe it was more about limiting the power of churches to interfere in government.

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    #205
    Quote Originally Posted by fishinFamily View Post
    Historically Church and State were essentially one in the same. Separating them was one of the many things our Country did to limit the power of churches.
    Fixed it for you. Guess you didn't pay close attention in history class.
    Jefferson, Madison and many other framers were very clear.
    They fully deemed religious interference as destructive to democracy.
    Want a theocracy? Live in Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan or Yemen.

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    #206
    Quote Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
    Fixed it for you. Guess you didn't pay close attention in history class.
    Jefferson, Madison and many other framers were very clear.
    They fully deemed religious interference as destructive to democracy.
    Want a theocracy? Live in Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan or Yemen.
    The names change, but the inferences don't.

    The ONLY place you will read the phrase "separation of church and state" is the now famous Jefferson Letter, and nowhere else. those 2 words in a private letter form the only basis as to the fallacy that is being purported by the proponents of separation. Madison and the other framers were open as to the role that their religious values played in the events leading up to the founding of the US.

    The founders were attempting to prevent another Church of England scenario in the US, and this was the reason for the language in the Constitution. The prevention of a State Sponsored religion was the goal, not preventing Christianity or other religions from being part of government.

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    #207
    Is Constitutional history even being taught anymore, because it doesn't seem to be used much.

    Back to your regularly scheduled rant.

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    #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. View Post
    The ONLY place you will read the phrase "separation of church and state" is the now famous Jefferson Letter, and nowhere else. those 2 words in a private letter form the only basis as to the fallacy that is being purported by the proponents of separation. Madison and the other framers were open as to the role that their religious values played in the events leading up to the founding of the US.

    The founders were attempting to prevent another Church of England scenario in the US, and this was the reason for the language in the Constitution. The prevention of a State Sponsored religion was the goal, not preventing Christianity or other religions from being part of government.
    Please tell me you don't teach history.

    Penned by James Madison, the 'Father' of the US Constitution.
    Seems pretty clear he fully intended to keep religion out of our government.


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    #209
    Quote Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
    Please tell me you don't teach history.

    Penned by James Madison, the 'Father' of the US Constitution.
    Seems pretty clear he fully intended to keep religion out of our government.

    This is almost as big of a reach as the separation argument. Funny part is that Madison has written and acknowledged the Creator's influence in the formation of the Republic. In this instance he likens the chaplains to the Church of England scenario, and thus is correct. What it doesn't do, however, is support the separation language that you seem to think it does.

    Madison sought to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. That is the reason for the BOR language.

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    #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. View Post
    This is almost as big of a reach as the separation argument. Funny part is that Madison has written and acknowledged the Creator's influence in the formation of the Republic. In this instance he likens the chaplains to the Church of England scenario, and thus is correct. What it doesn't do, however, is support the separation language that you seem to think it does.

    Madison sought to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. That is the reason for the BOR language.
    You just don't get it. Even in print. We are NOT a theocracy, just the opposite.
    The reason is very simple, it's dangerous and counterproductive at best.
    No one should have to be subject to a religious practice not of their choosing.
    It's definitely not appropriate to offer a Christian prayer in government.
    At any level, at any time, any reason. Same with a Muslim or Jewish prayer.
    One person is not a lick more important than any other, or due less respect.

  11. Member Quillback's Avatar
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    #211
    Madison also wrote:

    "Practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both."

    It's not a one way street.


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    #212
    Quote Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
    You just don't get it. Even in print. We are NOT a theocracy, just the opposite.
    The reason is very simple, it's dangerous and counterproductive at best.
    No one should have to be subject to a religious practice not of their choosing.
    It's definitely not appropriate to offer a Christian prayer in government.
    At any level, at any time, any reason. Same with a Muslim or Jewish prayer.
    One person is not a lick more important than any other, or due less respect.
    I get it all too well, Jimbo. YOU seem to think that you speak for everyone, and you don't. We have never, ever been a theocracy, and won't be. One cannot deny the influence that religion had on the formation and legal basis of this country, though. Contrary to your line of absolutism, morality exists because of religious overtones. Civilization has a moral code because of it. To deny it shows a dangerous level of ignorance about the government, the Constitution and our history, even with the alarming level of whitewash you apply.

    I try to understand your zeal to rewrite history and cannot. I guess to eradicate what frightens you is the most logical response out there.

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    #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G. View Post
    morality exists because of religious overtones
    Are you naive enough to think one can't be moral without religion? Seriously??
    Morality is open to ANYONE who chooses to pursue it. Nothing else needed.

  14. Billyyonder
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    #214
    Quote Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
    Are you naive enough to think one can't be moral without religion? Seriously??
    Morality is open to ANYONE who chooses to pursue it. Nothing else needed.
    What would the morality be based upon? Anytime someone does something that contradicts one of these made up versions of morality how would you counter it? The answer to any offense could be "So what" and that would have to suffice.

  15. Billyyonder
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    #215
    Quote Originally Posted by LewStulePH.D. View Post
    Strongest "testimony" yet.. Took the time to register a nom de plume to get in another shot.. Ye have little Faith?

    So what happened to ALL the people who were here before Jesus? Surely, if You KNOW the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, You'd KNOW this puzzler?
    It not a puzzler, the Bible clearly lays it out. Funny the amount of hatred when we mention the name Jesus Christ.

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    #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyyonder View Post
    What would the morality be based upon?
    Civilized behavior and integrity. It's actually SCARY to think that anyone uses religion to foster their morality.
    A person, a group, a country should be judged upon their actions alone, not their thoughts or ideologies.
    And for that reason alone, we absolutely must insist upon government completely pure of religious influence.
    For example, I have no issue with Yemen being a Muslim theocracy. I would have issue if they attacked us.
    We need to learn from history, something we seem to really fail constantly. Religions are personal, not public.

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    #217
    Jim, you cannot be moral or ethical enough to earn your way into Heaven.

    Scripture tells us that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

    Do do you actually read the Bible?

    You seem to to be angry at God and Christians. Even so Jesus would like to call you friend and forgive you. Even after Judas betrayed him Jesus still loved him.

    Another scripture : Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If not on this earth, then on Judgement Day.

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    #218
    It's not so much that Government is based upon Religion it's more so that the people who Establish the Government have Religious beliefs.
    To be absent of any moral compass regardless of its origin is contrary to Human Nature.
    Of course there are widely differing opinions as to which morality is correct. The consequences of which we have seen through out history.

  19. Member Fatshaft Merc's Avatar
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    #219
    Quote Originally Posted by 1Holeshot View Post
    Jim, you cannot be moral or ethical enough to earn your way into Heaven.

    Scripture tells us that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

    Do do you actually read the Bible?

    You seem to to be angry at God and Christians. Even so Jesus would like to call you friend and forgive you. Even after Judas betrayed him Jesus still loved him.

    Another scripture : Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If not on this earth, then on Judgement Day.
    He fits in a group the Bible refers to as 'wise and prudent'. They take any knowledge they have picked up about the Bible only to use it ridicule, chastise, and belittle the Bible instead of using it for their spiritual gain or their growth in Christ. That is why the scripture says, "the Truth is hidden from the wise and prudent".
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    #220
    Quote Originally Posted by 1Holeshot View Post
    Jim, you cannot be moral or ethical enough to earn your way into Heaven.

    Scripture tells us that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

    Do do you actually read the Bible?

    You seem to to be angry at God and Christians. Even so Jesus would like to call you friend and forgive you. Even after Judas betrayed him Jesus still loved him.

    Another scripture : Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If not on this earth, then on Judgement Day.
    So everyone born before Jesus is out of luck? Straight to hell with them?

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