Broward County Sheriif

[jayfaro]

I don't think the call to arm teachers is so that they can seek out and engage the shooter, but to have a last ditch means to defend themselves and their students if the shooter gets to them before LE can get to the shooter.

Exactly. My wife holds her LTC. She works in a school. I’m torn on the topic if they need to be armed. Lots of pros and cons. The biggest con for me would be if a student who can’t get his hands on a gun knows a teacher is carrying that teacher is now a target. On the other hand if a teacher is armed and a shooter comes into that class he’s going to walk into a muzzle of a person defending their students. Gives the teacher and kids a fighting chance. For the record my wife though who has never had any tactical training is one helluva shot and can outshoot me with any weapon of choice. I’ve been shooting for 25 years. She’s been shooting for 5 and I wouldn’t compete against her and she’s unbelievably responsible with a firearm. I still lean against arming teachers for now...subject to change.

Regarding everyone not being there and not knowing the specifics, let’s review...the person in charge of protecting the school was armed, with body armor, taking a “defensive”position in another damn building while the shooter killed 17 kids. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this option was better than any other option available. I think some on this thread have a big mouth and are stirring the pot. To defend any of the actions of the sheriff is laughable.

[imbatman]

I would think you would have to be there or do a whole lot more than watch the video.

I don't buy into the whole "you had to be there scenario". In my opinion people use that when logic has run out. You have an opinion (that is all it is not matter how important you think it is or how right you think it is) that you had to "be there". Our society would be a miserable failure of recurring mistakes if this was how things are handled across society.

[JerryT]

Exactly. My wife holds her LTC. She works in a school. I’m torn on the topic if they need to be armed. Lots of pros and cons. The biggest con for me would be if a student who can’t get his hands on a gun knows a teacher is carrying that teacher is now a target. On the other hand if a teacher is armed and a shooter comes into that class he’s going to walk into a muzzle of a person defending their students. Gives the teacher and kids a fighting chance. For the record my wife though who has never had any tactical training is one helluva shot and can outshoot me with any weapon of choice. I’ve been shooting for 25 years. She’s been shooting for 5 and I wouldn’t compete against her and she’s unbelievably responsible with a firearm. I still lean against arming teachers for now...subject to change.

Regarding everyone not being there and not knowing the specifics, let’s review...the person in charge of protecting the school was armed, with body armor, taking a “defensive”position in another damn building while the shooter killed 17 kids. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this option was better than any other option available. I think some on this thread have a big mouth and are stirring the pot. To defend any of the actions of the sheriff is laughable.

Jay you carry concealed .. ever have anyone point you out for carrying ?? I think unless the teacher makes it known that they carry the kids wouldn’t know and be able to target them .. I think once the soft target stops being a soft targets the problems stop.. not many police departments have people storm into them trying to kill a bunch of people

[BigMouth]

I don't buy into the whole "you had to be there scenario". In my opinion people use that when logic has run out. You have an opinion (that is all it is not matter how important you think it is or how right you think it is) that you had to "be there". Our society would be a miserable failure of recurring mistakes if this was how things are handled across society.

If you ever find yourself in a court of law I'm guessing then you won't object to hear-say evidence being introduced, possibly against you?

[BigMouth]

I don't think the call to arm teachers is so that they can seek out and engage the shooter, but to have a last ditch means to defend themselves and their students if the shooter gets to them before LE can get to the shooter.

[jayfaro]

Jay you carry concealed .. ever have anyone point you out for carrying ?? I think unless the teacher makes it known that they carry the kids wouldn’t know and be able to target them .. I think once the soft target stops being a soft targets the problems stop.. not many police departments have people storm into them trying to kill a bunch of people

I carry a lot. Never once have ever been asked about it. My fear, using my wife as an example, if anything were to get out that she was carrying on school grounds, however that may happen, she goes to use the restroom and in the event gets jumped and has her gun taken. I will also say if school employees are allowed to carry they MUST carry on the person. Not in a bag or a purse as people forget stuff. Leaving a gun in a bag in a classroom is not good.

[188Musky]

I think once the soft target stops being a soft targets the problems stop..

Key phrase, right there.

[SOONER*REDNECK]

Im absolutely not defending the SRO, but there is no possible way the man has worked enough years to retire being a coward. One cant help but think this was not his retirement gig job where he was just buying time till the big day. I may be way off but my guess is he thought to him self I have made it this far and the end is near and likely thought about wife, kids, grandkids ect and opted against making entry and bringing the fight to the lunatic inside. I could be completely wrong on that and it doesnt take away from the coward act he made by not stepping into dangers way to defend these innocent kids. He should have retired or quit a long time ago! Absolutely a horrible thing that happened and a lot of people need prayer at this time including the now retired SRO. Prayers to all involved.

[BigMouth]

Exactly. My wife holds her LTC. She works in a school. I’m torn on the topic if they need to be armed. Lots of pros and cons. The biggest con for me would be if a student who can’t get his hands on a gun knows a teacher is carrying that teacher is now a target. On the other hand if a teacher is armed and a shooter comes into that class he’s going to walk into a muzzle of a person defending their students. Gives the teacher and kids a fighting chance. For the record my wife though who has never had any tactical training is one helluva shot and can outshoot me with any weapon of choice. I’ve been shooting for 25 years. She’s been shooting for 5 and I wouldn’t compete against her and she’s unbelievably responsible with a firearm. I still lean against arming teachers for now...subject to change.

Regarding everyone not being there and not knowing the specifics, let’s review...the person in charge of protecting the school was armed, with body armor, taking a “defensive”position in another damn building while the shooter killed 17 kids. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this option was better than any other option available. I think some on this thread have a big mouth and are stirring the pot. To defend any of the actions of the sheriff is laughable.

Oh dear, I have one of those too. Now she always want's to go to the shooting range with me, very irritating!

[jayfaro]

Oh dear, I have one of those too. Now she always want's to go to the shooting range with me, very irritating!

Especially when she says let’s put it out another 20 yards...and then my favorite...”watch this” lol I can barely see the target. She was shooting a crossbow at 100 yards last weekend. I just walked away and went to shoot archery with my daughters inside my club.

[BigMouth]

Im absolutely not defending the SRO, but there is no possible way the man has worked enough years to retire being a coward. One cant help but think this was not his retirement gig job where he was just buying time till the big day. I may be way off but my guess is he thought to him self I have made it this far and the end is near and likely thought about wife, kids, grandkids ect and opted against making entry and bringing the fight to the lunatic inside. I could be completely wrong on that and it doesnt take away from the coward act he made by not stepping into dangers way to defend these innocent kids. He should have retired or quit a long time ago! Absolutely a horrible thing that happened and a lot of people need prayer at this time including the now retired SRO. Prayers to all involved.

Something is certainly going on here.

We now know that . . .

Four other sheriff deputies held up and did not enter.

The video was on a delay of up to 20 minutes.

The school and the sheriff's office were talking to each other but because of the video delay communications got all futzed up.

Several different agencies were involved, were they in communications with each other.

The Sheriff's office and the FBI both screwed up badly.

The Sheriff never hesitated to throw one of his men under the bus.

When the chit finally stops hitting the fan who knows how this all shakes out.

This could take forever to figure out if it isn't covered up. Case in point the Vegas shooting was five months ago how much do we know about that?

[BigMouth]

Especially when she says let’s put it out another 20 yards...and then my favorite...”watch this” lol I can barely see the target. She was shooting a crossbow at 100 yards last weekend. I just walked away and went to shoot archery with my daughters inside my club.

We did a gun house scenario awhile back at a self defense course. She had very little experience but the rest of us were all shooters, LEO's, security etc.

We all did good but as the instructor pointed out, repeatedly, my wife was the only one out of all of us to shout "STOP or I'll shoot!" before engaging the targets.

The instructor's did tell us to do so, we had no excuses.

But my wife had an ear to ear grin on her face from all the instructors praise, they did say that almost everyone forgot to do this.

I wanted to kick her a$$ but she grew up with ten brothers and sisters so I was afraid she also knew how to fight better than me.

[imbatman]

If you ever find yourself in a court of law I'm guessing then you won't object to hear-say evidence being introduced, possibly against you?

What?

... hearsay evidence in nothing like what we are talking about. People saw the officers not enter the building... nothing hearsay about that. We are talking about situations people were actually in straight from their mouths (students and teachers that have been interviewed)... not a 2nd person telling what someone else told them they saw/did.

But I'm good man... you never seem to answers anyone's direct question... It is the internet at its best.

[188Musky]

The Sheriff never hesitated to throw one of his men under the bus.

It occurs to me that the hesitation to take decisive action by his deputies may well have been because of the Sheriff's previous treatment of them in other matters.

Poor leadership does much damage.

[BigMouth]

What?

... hearsay evidence in nothing like what we are talking about. People saw the officers not enter the building... nothing hearsay about that. We are talking about situations people were actually in straight from their mouths (students and teachers that have been interviewed)... not a 2nd person telling what someone else told them they saw/did.

But I'm good man... you never seem to answers anyone's direct question... It is the internet at its best.

I'm sorry counselor but you don't get to introduce new or unrelated evidence midway into an argument.

We were talking about BSP wondering what it would take for "getfished" to allow a critique regarding the actions of the Sheriff who failed to enter the school and engage the shooter.

I said it would take BSP's presence at the scene or a whole lot more foot work, i.e. investigation than just viewing a video.

There you go, shall we try again?

[billnorman1]

How many of you could shoot a child, especially one that sat in your classroom? That's an incredible emotional decision that an armed teacher may have to face. I don't think simple safety and accuracy training can motivate or prepare a teacher to do it.

As the record shows, many if not most of these insane school shootings are done by children or kids still in their teens. From what I see on T V this school is a campus with many separated buildings, and the officer was outside when the noise from the shooting happened, No clear view of what was going on, no way to determine exactly where the noise was coming from or what it was. His shoes are way too tight for my feet, All the violence took place in a 7 minute span then the perp left with the other students.

Too much unknowns.

[BigMouth]

It occurs to me that the hesitation to take decisive action by his deputies may well have been because of the Sheriff's previous treatment of them in other matters.

Poor leadership does much damage.

Yep, or it could be no leadership as we've all learned.

[Pantera61]

How many of you could shoot a child, especially one that sat in your classroom? That's an incredible emotional decision that an armed teacher may have to face. I don't think simple safety and accuracy training can motivate or prepare a teacher to do it.

As the record shows, many if not most of these insane school shootings are done by children or kids still in their teens. From what I see on T V this school is a campus with many separated buildings, and the officer was outside when the noise from the shooting happened, No clear view of what was going on, no way to determine exactly where the noise was coming from or what it was. His shoes are way too tight for my feet, All the violence took place in a 7 minute span then the perp left with the other students.

Too much unknowns.

If that "child", is spraying lead from one side to another, and is what 18 or 19? First off, 18 or 19, ain't a kid. Ceases to be "child" and becomes a threat. Call me a keyboard Rambo or not in the situation so I don't know, balls to that. You know, IF YOU'RE BEING HONEST, LEO or not, in that situation or not, years served or not, if one of your kids were in that school, park, stadium, street, whatever, the rulebook goes OUT THE WINDOW.

[Nova Kaw 650]

I haven't read the entire thread, but here's my thoughts, and a little different take on the whole thing.
I'm not a particularly fearless person nor am I a LEO, but if I hear gunshots in a school and my job is to protect those in the school, I'm going to quickly advance toward the gunshots until I can spot the shooter and hopefully take him down before he can get a shot at me.
That being said, and as others have pointed out, "we weren't there". Did he know there was one shooter? Did he have the info that people were being shot, or was someone blowing shots through the roof? Or, based on the number of shots, was this a terrorist attack with six heavily armed body armor wearing lunatics taking hostages, in which case having one guy charging in, shooting at the perps would lead to an even worse ending than took place?

[DvKing]

That’s exactly why the officer was there. To quickly find answers to those questions.