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  1. #1
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    Pantera Classic Performance question

    If anyone has a new Pantera Classic with a 200 SHO can you post your performance #s?


    I have a new Pantera Classic with a 200 SHO, prop is a 25p T2. I've put 7hrs on the engine and can't get the RPMs above 5200 even fully trimmed out. With the motor trimmed all the way in the most it will turn is 4100. Top rpm fully trimmed out is 5,150- 5,200 and 66mph. This is with the boat lightly loaded (qtr tank of fuel, not much tackle and livewells full).

    At the 7hr mark I took it to a local BC dealer to have things checked out, their claim was the selling dealer overfilled the oil reservoir reducing RPM (I didn't buy the boat locally). Per them the oil was 2qts over, but they also claimed to get it to turn 5800 rpm but only 62mph... I checked the throttle and it appears to be adjusted correctly. I don't know jack about marine engines, but I know a 200 SHO is supposed to turn a 25p T2 more than 5,200 rpm. The initial break -in was done per Yamaha instructions just to avoid any warranty issues.

    With the mild weather I took it for a spin this weekend no change, the best it will turn the prop is 5150-5200 rpm. Here's my dilemma, not withstanding the performance issue I won't ever get the engine broke in turning just 5200. After paying thru the nose for a oil change and less than informative check up by a local dealer, and Yamaha just giving me lip service I'm about to get frustrated... BUT before I get with someone and make them figure out what's NOT going on with my engine I need something to compare my performance too.
    Last edited by ChrisS22; 11-27-2017 at 10:10 AM.

  2. Member J Risco's Avatar
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    #2
    Sounds like it might not be getting up on pad, which could be a setup issue, what is your prop to pad measurement?

    Might also want to try another prop, the one you have might just be a dud. Happens now and then, tolerances in prop manufacturing can suck!

    In any case, you are right, def need to get that thing as close to 6K rpm now to get those rings seated!
    2021 Phoenix 920 Elite / SHO 250
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    #3
    I can think of a half-dozen questions.

    (1) where is the jack plate set, prop-to-pad? Too deep will certainly limit speed / RPM.

    (2) when you say "fully trimmed out" what does that mean? 'Cats generally do not run well over-trimmed. Good guide is to run it for max speed. Look at motor (a helper is good here) to verify that the motor appears to be perfectly vertical (the bottom edge of the dark part of the cowl is perfectly horizontal).

    (3) have you checked the oil? These motors have a tendency to wash raw fuel into the crankcase and "make oil". You don't want it to be above the full mark or this will hurt performance as well. If it climbs much over full, time for a change. Draining a little out won't work as you are left with oil that is diluted with raw gas, not the best lubricant.

    (4) the standard gear ratio for that motor appears to be 1.75, same as mercs and others. That 25p ought to be pretty close. But it needs to spin up to close to 6000 rpm in this cool air. Your current RPM is a double-whammy. First, you are not spinning the prop fast enough to reach max speed which I'd expect to be over 70. Second, you are below max horsepower RPM (5500) which means you are not reaching full horsepower output which further slows you down.

    I don't think the 4-strokes run at reduced power during break-in, where a 2-stroke usually double-oils for a couple of hours which can foul plugs, build up carbon, etc. Make sure you run yamaha's "fuel cocktail" which includes their carbon reducing additive. If the PTP is in the 3" range, you are pretty close (I run mine at 2.25"). If you are sure the prop is a 25p, then I'd probably have the dealer take a look. And by "taking a look" I do not mean "hmmm... looks ok to me." I mean make 'em run it with you aboard. They should know the correct RPM level.

    Given your 66mph speed, my first test would be to try a 24p. You are not that far off in terms of max speed. Dropping the pitch will get you more RPM AND get you more horsepower to spin it even faster, once you get into the max power band of the motor.

    I am making a couple of assumptions: (1) you are using a digital tach (will display RPM in a digital format, not with a mechanical needle that sweeps around the gauge) since analog tachometers are often inaccurate and (2) your speed is GPS.

    If your motor is too low (PTP) AND you over-trim, that will cost you speed without increasing slip because you keep the prop buried in the water. Over-trimming simply wastes power throwing water into the air.

    If this were my boat, here's what I would do:

    (1) carefully measure prop to pad. If it is over 3 1/2", I would raise the motor to about 3" and move up in 1/4" increments until max speed is reached. This takes some time as you need to make 2-way runs of a couple of miles at least. Once you get the motor height correct, then you can look at RPM and speed. If you are not close to 6K rpm, I'd back off on pitch to 24" or whatever it takes to get RPM up to near the redline when the air is cold. If you are not into the low 70's by this point, then I'd take it to the dealer and say "fix it".

    I'm purely a Merc fan, so I don't know much about the Sho's. Yamaha implies, from their web page, that they are not quite as fast as an equivalent Mercury 2-stroke Pro XS, but every test I have seen published has them within a couple of mph of each other. So certainly 66 is outside the expected performance window.

    As far as testing, one thing you do want is reproducibility. IE SAME load for each run. Same everything except for what you are changing (motor height, prop pitch, etc.) Once you change props, you will probably want to go back and re-test motor height and adjust.

    This is one of those things that take some time to get just right. Particularly when there is not a lot of performance data available for the new classic hull. We know the older classics pretty well, there are lots of them around.
    2008 Bass Cat Pantera Classic
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    #4
    Thanks for the response Old Timer,

    1) I haven't measured the p2p, for the life of me I can't quite figure how out. But here's what I can tell ya. Initially I thought raising the JP would fix the problem. Assuming both the adjustable and static parts of the plate are flush I've raised the adjustable part of the plate up 2.75" (water pressure is still good at between 12-15). That got me up to 5,150-5,200 rpm from an initial high rpm of ~4,900 rpm. I've raised the engine so much there is a little prop slip coming out the hole, not much but a little.

    2) Fully trimmed is when I have the motor trimmed as far out/high as it I will go. That's the only way I can get the rpms near 5,200. With the engine trimmed all the way down it will only turn 4,100. I know BCs don't need a lot of trim but the ONLY way I can get the rpms up is to trim the motor as high as it will go. Netural trim gets me about 4300 - 4400 rpms...

    3) Yes, I had them change the oil when I took it in after 7 hrs to figure out what the problem was. Per the local dealer it was 2 qts over but rpms didn't increase even after the oil change.

    The gauges are analog but 66mph @ 5,200 is 8-10% slip (well within expected performance #s). 62mph @ 5,800 rpm is ~24% slip (unbelieveable #s with the same prop according to someone who knows way more about props than me). The speed is GPS. My thoughts on the prop are even going down to a 24p would only get me ~200rpm, and while I realize all hulls aren't the same (even within the same year model boat ) but I shouldn't have to go down in pitch to get an engine to perform like its supposed too.
    Last edited by ChrisS22; 11-27-2017 at 12:06 PM.

  5. Member iron banks's Avatar
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    #5
    Get a hold of a known good prop. That prop may be a dud.

  6. Member Midnight Rider's Avatar
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    #6
    If you're having to trim "all the way out", that's too much. How high is your rooster tail? It should never be higher than the top of the cowling on the engine. There are a bunch of threads about how to measure prop to pad, but here's a quick way: With the trailer off the hitch, place a rigid straight edge (a piece of angle steel works good, or something rigid like a broom handle) up to the bottom of the pad, horizontally, ideally letting the straight edge rest at least a foot towards the front of the boat. All this is being done at the rear of the boat. With the straight edge firmly against the bottom of the pad, put a short level on the part of the straight edge sticking out behind the pad...use the tongue jack to get the bottom of the pad (the straight edge) LEVEL. All this should be done on a level surface, like a garage floor, if possible. After you have the pad level, place the level on the cavitation plate and adjust the trim switch until the plate is also level. Measure the distance from the bottom of the pad at the rear to the ground...let's just say that is 16 inches for example. Then measure the distance from the CENTER of the prop shaft to the ground. Let's just say that is 13 inches. Subtract 13 from 16 and you get 3 inches. That is your prop to pad distance. If it were me, I'd want to make sure that distance is about 3". If so, make a mark with a Sharpie or something on the jackplate so you'll have a starting place without having to do all of this again. Then start adjusting up or down. I'd start by going up 1/2" from 3". Make a run (after warming the engine up, of course), trimming up until you reach maximum speed. TRIM GIVES YOU SPEED AT WIDE OPEN THROTTLE. Note RPM and water pressure, at that given speed. If water pressure is above 15 psi, then move it up another 1/4". Repeat until you either drop water pressure, increase RPM without a gain in speed, or both. I prefer to keep my wp up around 15 psi running wide open in a straight line, because when you turn, the wp will drop and you may have to trim down a touch to keep it up. If you have good wp at that setting, and see an increase in RPM AND speed, then bump it up another 1/4" until one of the other happens. Then bump it back down 1/4" and you should be very close to right. I would be very surprised if you need to go any higher than 2.5" below pad. If nothing happens raising the motor up, then try lowering it a half inch to 3.5" (from your starting mark) and repeat the process again. If all of that gains you nothing, you have other issues...like butterfly valves are not open all the way with throttle in the wide open position (if you have a hot foot, this is an easy adjustment); you have a crappy prop (just because it's new doesn't mean it's right); or you need to drop a pitch on the prop. That boat SHOULD turn a 25 without a problem. I have a 175 SHO running a 24" T2 and am turning 6,035 at 69.5. You want that SHO engine to turn as close to 6,000 as you can get it in cool weather. If you have access to another known good prop, try it to see what happens. You should be able to get at least 70mph with just you in the boat, even with all your stuff and full tanks. Probably more. When you get 10 hours on the engine, run the piss out of it for at least 5 minute runs. After 20 hours, do a few runs wide assed open for 20 - 30 minutes. That is the only way you're going to get the rings seated on that SHO and get it to stop blowing fuel by the rings and into the crankcase...you have to get the engine up to full operating temperature for several minutes. Just don't shut the engine off as soon as you come off plane...give it a minute to cool back down a bit. Getting it hot will also vaporize any fuel in the oil. If you compare props and find you have a turd, make Yamaha replace it.

    I hope that makes sense...
    BassCat '17 Sabre DC FTD Advantage Elite
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    #7
    Here's how I measure p2p:

    1. put a straight edge under the boat, something that is dead straight with no bow/warp/etc. Put it so that one end is just behind the end of the prop shaft, the rest up under the boat, 6' long. I use a 6' level for this myself. Level it by putting a door wedge or something similar under the low end. Once you get it level...

    2. hold a level to the center of the pad, from the back edge forward. Have someone adjust the trailer jack on the front until this reads dead level.

    3. Re-check the level on the floor to be sure you haven't bumped it. :)

    4. Put a level on the anti-ventilation plate and level that, which is the same as leveling the prop shaft. Use the tilt/trim button to get it dead level.

    5. re-check the level on the floor again. :)

    Now measure from the back edge of the pad, in the center, to the level or whatever you have on the floor. Be sure that you measure dead vertically. Write this number down. Then measure from the center of the prop shaft to the same level, again being sure you are measuring vertical in both directions. Write this number down. Subtract the second number from the first number. That is your PtP measurement. Most run best in a 1" range or so between 3.5" down to 2.5" (I run @ 2.25" myself).

    To start on this problem, I'd start at 3". That ought to run pretty well. Raising the motor to 2.5" or less is NOT going to get you 3-4-5 mph, so 3" is OK for starting.

    Have you had that SHO checked out? It's always possible it is down on power, has a fouled plug, etc...

    BTW, if you have a hotfoot, be SURE to follow MR's advice about making sure it is adjusted so that the throttle body butterfly is going to wide open. There is a stop screw on the back that is used to keep you from slamming the butterfly against the stop, which will damage things. But if the screw is adjusted incorrectly, it can limit travel more than you want and kill performance. On a Merc, I'd pull the front of the air box off and have someone stand on the hot foot while I look at the butterfly. It should be parallel to the bore of the throttle body. If not, it needs adjustment.
    2008 Bass Cat Pantera Classic
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    #8
    It is doubtful that RPM's are off and power down due to oil levels and it sounds like set up. The engine height and steering torque on top end are the indicators.

    We are wondering what steering wheel torque is like running top end? If the steering is fairly free on top end we would just raise it in quarter inch increments. We don't think running full out the steering is going to be hard to manage and pull hard to the right. That is where you start lowering engines and you always want to run them for setup fully under a load, with livewells, gear and people weights.

    Our initial opinion is the engine is too low. We also feel,that setu would be better served with a 24" pitch propeller. The Pantera Classic is a fairly heavy rig.

    BCB


    Please no one take this statement as slighting or wrong:
    Many Pantera Classic owners are going to be newer to set up on performance bass boats. Some of us, like OT57, have spent decades learning our way through choppers, clever, and elephant ears. We were always building our own and having running or tuning sessions. Often that included bubbles on engine exhaust and cutting tuners. That number of skilled, or experienced, boat set up helpers is seriously diminishing. Everyone you speak to today seems to give advice almost like they stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night. Unfortunately that's about the extent of good opinion in their advice.

    Today's group is more plug and play, they expect things to be more intuitive like their smart phones. Unfortunately boat setup is only intuitive if you understand the nuances. It's going to take this group of anglers a few years to catch on and learn how. That actually applies to many boat technicians today as we often find those giving advice have little understanding of what really needs to be done. It's a dying art from days before factory propellers and trial and error. That art will be relearned and more will know in time.

  9. Member J Risco's Avatar
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bass Cat Boats View Post
    It is doubtful that RPM's are off and power down due to oil levels and it sounds like set up. The engine height and steering torque on top end are the indicators.

    We are wondering what steering wheel torque is like running top end? If the steering is fairly free on top end we would just raise it in quarter inch increments. We don't think running full out the steering is going to be hard to manage and pull hard to the right. That is where you start lowering engines and you always want to run them for setup fully under a load, with livewells, gear and people weights.

    Our initial opinion is the engine is too low. We also feel,that setu would be better served with a 24" pitch propeller. The Pantera Classic is a fairly heavy rig.

    BCB


    Please no one take this statement as slighting or wrong:
    Many Pantera Classic owners are going to be newer to set up on performance bass boats. Some of us, like OT57, have spent decades learning our way through choppers, clever, and elephant ears. We were always building our own and having running or tuning sessions. Often that included bubbles on engine exhaust and cutting tuners. That number of skilled, or experienced, boat set up helpers is seriously diminishing. Everyone you speak to today seems to give advice almost like they stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night. Unfortunately that's about the extent of good opinion in their advice.

    Today's group is more plug and play, they expect things to be more intuitive like their smart phones. Unfortunately boat setup is only intuitive if you understand the nuances. It's going to take this group of anglers a few years to catch on and learn how. That actually applies to many boat technicians today as we often find those giving advice have little understanding of what really needs to be done. It's a dying art from days before factory propellers and trial and error. That art will be relearned and more will know in time.

    Again, I still think it's a setup issue. Wish you lived closer cause I would love a chance to set one of the new Classics up!
    2021 Phoenix 920 Elite / SHO 250
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    #10
    BCB,

    Steering torque is minimal at top end, I'll be fishing again this weekend so I'll go up another .25 and see what the results are.

    Thanks OldTimer & Midnight Rider - Using your instructions I think I can measure P2P.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisS22 View Post
    BCB,

    Steering torque is minimal at top end, I'll be fishing again this weekend so I'll go up another .25 and see what the results are.

    Thanks OldTimer & Midnight Rider - Using your instructions I think I can measure P2P.
    Keep messing with the set up.
    Minimal torques steer indicates your still too deep with the prop to pad. Raise that jack plate. Keep raising till you get some torque in the steering while on pad and trimmed for max speed/RPM.
    Keep us updated. As you work thru this and get the Classic set up to perform properly, it will help future buyers.
    2016 BassCat Pantera II
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    #12
    Boy, BCB really likes to call me out on my love of choppers, etc. :) But I am a pretty solid Fury 3-blade fan today as I have long since gotten tired of continual maintenance (choppers and such are very hard on lower units, at least older ones that I used (non CLE / non-sporty)). That being said, I will have a report later on an interesting experiment last weekend. Friend (racing type) happened to be at the ramp where I was getting ready to launch and we started to rehash old stories. He whipped out a new Lightning ET 28P and asked if I wanted to try it. How could I resist? All I did prior to making a run with just me on board was to raise the motor to 2" PTP. Came SO close to reaching 80. But several runs and 79.9 later, I gave up. But I did not try to tweak motor height as the water is in the 60 degree range and I didn't feel like fooling with it. Regardless of what the Merc Racing guys say, with my 200 pro xs hole shot was an absolute dog. Lots of ventilation on break-over, with that motor height. But once it got to going... Conditions were about 60 degrees water, 50 degrees and dry air. Just a slight chop (a little more might have been enough to break 80). My son hopped aboard and speed dropped to 74 although again, I did not try adjusting motor height. Had about 1/4 tank of gas, normal tackle (I do NOT fish heavy) and live wells empty.

    Not sure 28p was what I would want, as engine rpm peaked at 5600 where my Fury 26p will spin to 5800-5900, sometimes a bit more depending on how cooperative the rpm limiter is.

    Am I going to start running one? Absolutely not, unless someone wants to run down the river and I can't keep up with my Fury. :) He said he paid about a thousand bucks for this thing from some online marine dealer that sells the things. I paid about $500 for my Fury, with a hub kit. Bit more reasonable.

    Crap. Guess I just gave the report. :) But it is incomplete and I'll run into him over the next month. Might experiment more. I'd like to have had time to run it a bit higher to help with the RPM, just didn't have time as we were losing light pretty quickly since we "fell back" on the clocks.

    BTW, for the hole shot, my Fury 26p is a 1-mississippi, 2-mississippi, 3-mississippi and GONE. The ET would have challenged a 6 year old to count that high. Other thing I always liked is that the "THUNK" goes away when shifting into gear since all the exhaust is going over the prop and gets mingled with the blades when you punch it. Had never seen one of these props previously, not sure how long they have been around. From what I see online it uses the same SS alloy the Fury's are using so I assume reasonably recent. One thing is for sure, they look pretty cool and would definitely be an attention-grabber on the back of most boats at the ramp.

    EDIT: almost forgot, not a great prop for cruising. Had a lot of slip at lower RPMs. My fury 26 runs between 45 and 50 at 4K rpms. This thing wouldn't hit 45 at 4500 RPM. Everything started to work a lot better beyond 5000 where the prop seems to suddenly dig in and start biting.
    2008 Bass Cat Pantera Classic
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    #13
    79.9 in a Pantera!!
    This is where the driver makes the difference.
    Though the prop isn't practical, its still impressive that the 200 could push the BCB to almost 80 mph.
    2016 BassCat Pantera II
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  14. Member J Risco's Avatar
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cajunhunter67 View Post
    79.9 in a Pantera!!
    This is where the driver makes the difference.
    Though the prop isn't practical, its still impressive that the 200 could push the BCB to almost 80 mph.
    Yes it is! That is flat out ROLLIN' w/ a stock 200. I have seen 76 with mine (stock) running solo under good conditions, but still had all my gear on board and I have a lot haha.
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    #15
    Just remember, you win some and lose some. I do most of my running at around 50-55 which is really decent in terms of fuel economy. That's around 4200 rpm. Lose a good bit there with the ET. Also it's too bad Merc doesn't make odd pitches as well as even. A 27p might be a bit better. And a 25/26 might help with the atrocious hole shot. 28p is just about too much, even with an over-hub prop. Would be undoable with a thru-hub.

    For the record, I've driven an allison with a 150 that would run this fast. :) And I've driven one based out of Louisiana that would break 90. Was running a merc 2.5 7500 rpm screamer, which is still my favorite motor of all time, no matter what it hangs off of.

    Mine runs 75-78 depending on conditions and load and the 26p fury. With me and son, peak has been 75. Just me, 78.5 but it takes cold air and enough chop to reduce surface tension attraction to the hull. We ran it the other day on glass and it was tough to get it to 74.
    2008 Bass Cat Pantera Classic
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    #16
    Well I ran it again today. I went up .25 to start then another .25, PLENTY of steering torque there Rpm would only go to 5250-5300. Water pressure was good at around 15psi I glanced back and the rooster tail is way over the cowling. Top speed (gps) 66-67mph.

    My guess is either i have a bad prop OR something is funky with the engine. At this point I'm out of my league so its back to dealer she goes... and call me when you get it to turning 6k.

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    #17
    ET's are similar to the old Clever over hub props and they have a lot of potential. Of course they don't, won't even get on plane with some rigs. They can run on some hulls for top end only. They are not the same alloy as Fury wheels.

  18. Member J Risco's Avatar
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisS22 View Post
    Well I ran it again today. I went up .25 to start then another .25, PLENTY of steering torque there Rpm would only go to 5250-5300. Water pressure was good at around 15psi I glanced back and the rooster tail is way over the cowling. Top speed (gps) 66-67mph.

    My guess is either i have a bad prop OR something is funky with the engine. At this point I'm out of my league so its back to dealer she goes... and call me when you get it to turning 6k.
    Man I really wish you lived closer, I have a couple props we could try on it and know right away (after I set P2P at 3-3.5" cause it's def too high now, but I know you did that just to try something to get rpm up)... I still think its a prop/setup issue. However, could very well be it's not getting WOT or something like that, so hopefully your dealer knows their stuff and will get it sorted out quick.
    2021 Phoenix 920 Elite / SHO 250
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  20. Member iron banks's Avatar
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    #20
    Simplest thing to do is is try another prop. Years ago on a champion hull with a yamaha 150 I was blown away by the difference from the dog prop new from the dealer to another prop. Gained 6 more mph and much better lift. You might be surprised.

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