Question about transducer offset

[jjjaymmman]

Jay, we finally agree on something! Nothing worse than a pro that is actually just a potlicker having someone else do the work for them! Hope these "pros" that have locations marked for them are caught!

I agree!!! I've met and talked with many pro anglers who regularly fish Guntersville - many of them live there - over the past several years. One thing you always hear them say - consistently - even in the off-season, "We don't discuss specific spots, waypoints, on the lake." We also hear this comment on FB live feeds as well.

So if Prostaff1, who frequently discusses KY lake, marks specific spots for a select few pro elites, and next year they produce a winning bag off those spots, would this mean the angler had a competitive advantage? I believe many would clearly agree this is an unfair advantage!

[jjjaymmman]

Jay, we finally agree on something! Nothing worse than a pro that is actually just a potlicker having someone else do the work for them! Hope these "pros" that have locations marked for them are caught!

The rules also discuss "future events." I know on the BASS college circuits I've fished (which mirror the same rules) they are specific about collecting waypoint information only from publicly available sources. In fact, we cannot obtain information from closed FB groups that other competitors cannot join. The goal is obviously to provide a level playing field. Here is the full paragraph of the rule addressed above, however not all the rules are clear cut and anything in question should be brought up to the director.

"2019 qualified Elite anglers cannot gather waypoints or specific fishing locations i.e. creek, river, area of the lake, etc. from any source that is not publicly available. Anglers may participate in general discussions with fans and others about fishing, especially including boat shows, seminars and the like; however, they must not use such conversations to intentionally gain a competitive edge for fishing on a future Elite event. To be safe in such situations, the angler should discontinue conversations that focus on specific locations or other information that might result in a competitive advantage."

[prostaff1]

Been fishing tournaments for 45 years and I can tell you that scrounging helpful info was going on then...and it still does now. Take a look at the waypoint pirates following every pro on every lake at every tournament AND practice days. My Pro in an Elite tournament got into a shouting match with a group of them and one of them said..."you sound like Skeet Reese" Obviously Skeet and MOST others know the drill and get really fed up with these scums...the Pirate was known to a lot of guys to steal the spots.
I do know that full tournament waypoint SD cards...all the producing spots marked...(thanks you GPS) were available for $50 all around the big tournament lakes.
How they control that I have no clue but it is probably impossible to police and the burden of proving it and punishing someone...a snowball chance in He** of every getting traction. The sport was more honorable and trustworthy before the big bucks takeover the last few decades or so. Caging large fish inside a chickenwire cell or 55 gal water drum...that was done all the time including a guy recently getting banned for it. There will always be cheaters in every sport, obvious point..But I think they will be found out eventually, It is tough and gives a black eye to an otherwise fine group of honest anglers. One or two need to go up river for a while, so to speak, to make a point !!
One Pro I was with had a mapping problem, being Lowrance Prostaff and Navionics Specialist at the time... and I could not tell him anything, comment or touch his equipment and he was professional enough to "not ask". Think most of the Pros have that same honest mindset from what I have seen. There is hope !!!!
Tommy
Prostaff
Lowrance/Navico

[jjjaymmman]

Been fishing tournaments for 45 years and I can tell you that scrounging helpful info was going on then...and it still does now. Take a look at the waypoint pirates following every pro on every lake at every tournament AND practice days. My Pro in an Elite tournament got into a shouting match with a group of them and one of them said..."you sound like Skeet Reese" Obviously Skeet and MOST others know the drill and get really fed up with these scums...the Pirate was known to a lot of guys to steal the spots.
I do know that full tournament waypoint SD cards...all the producing spots marked...(thanks you GPS) were available for $50 all around the big tournament lakes.
How they control that I have no clue but it is probably impossible to police and the burden of proving it and punishing someone...a snowball chance in He** of every getting traction. The sport was more honorable and trustworthy before the big bucks takeover the last few decades or so. Caging large fish inside a chickenwire cell or 55 gal water drum...that was done all the time including a guy recently getting banned for it. There will always be cheaters in every sport, obvious point..But I think they will be found out eventually, It is tough and gives a black eye to an otherwise fine group of honest anglers. One or two need to go up river for a while, so to speak, to make a point !!
One Pro I was with had a mapping problem, being Lowrance Prostaff and Navionics Specialist at the time... and I could not tell him anything, comment or touch his equipment and he was professional enough to "not ask". Think most of the Pros have that same honest mindset from what I have seen. There is hope !!!!
Tommy
Prostaff
Lowrance/Navico

I applaud your diversionary tactics but that doesn't justify your actions by giving select elite pro(s) a distinct advantage that could be utilized in future events. We are not talking about fish baskets or pissed off anglers because they were followed by locals.

Public available information doesn't need to be free. Any pro can buy a hot maps card that has waypoints marked where KVD fished; but, all the competitors can buy these cards as well. Even if the pirates sell their information, if it's publicly available to all elite pro anglers, then it publicly available and not limited to a select few. That's a key and vital distinction.

However, you said you created maps (assuming digital scans, maybe paper) and marked "highly productive" waypoint spots and provided this information to select elite anglers. This is clearly NOT public information. And, that's a complete contrast than simply showing a pro how to use their new equipment, maps, and waypoint marking features.

Just because other people did wrong things in the past doesn't excuse others from doing wrong things as well. I hope you have something other than the bandwagon approach.

Many of us look up to the bass pros for showcasing this sport as one of honesty and respect. However, if one of them used the information you provided in private then that's rather unfortunate! In fact, I believe many of us would have a greater respect for the pros had they declined to accept your gift.

[jjjaymmman]

...Another situation is when someone sends me a "spot".... I receive these and also send them many times with tournament buddies... I was at BassFest on KY lake a couple years ago in an Elite Pros boat. I just sent a "spot" that produced incredibly well to a friend for his upcoming tournament there. I am confident I put him on a very likely ledge spot...
....
Tommy
Prostaff Lowrance/Navico
Prostaff Marine Specialist/Navionics

Humm... how do you tounament fishermen feel about this practice? Legit? Unfair? Or just glad you're not competing against his "buddies?"

[prostaff1]

You assumptions are way off accurate...I have never participated in giving anything to anyone at a tournament, not ever. I DO however teach mapping and the creation of custom maps at a lot of events but none specific to helping one angler to have an advantage. I did an event at Douglas lake when it was 25' down and I created maps for a group of Anglers showing the new lake, all points, channels, specific details..but 25 feet down and eliminated ALL of the original normal pool clutter...so they could fish it and pattern it just as if it was normal pool...That was to help a group who asked and I tried to help them..NOT one angler.
Another time in particular was for a Classic winning Elite Angler at a dinner...Yes, we were at an Elite tournament..However, the map was for a totally different lake he fished a lot and he asked to see areas he already had success in.. to see if he could see reasons for his success... then how to take that method and use it on other lakes. This is VERY common for me and it teaches the METHOD of location, POSSIBLY highly productive areas so they can do it on their own.
I have done this a lot and taught how to create these incredibly detailed maps of certain areas on many lakes. None ever for a Pro prior to or during any tournament. Ever.

So your innuendo and assumptions are way off base. KVD once said that there are no secrets at all anymore on KY lake in particular. I think due to pirates and the buddy system that he is somewhat correct.
"IF" that were totally true, then one Angler, having all of the "spots" would win ALL of the tournaments, and that simply does not happen so then it comes down to Angler knowledge and skill...as it always does.
You might tell them where to fish..it would be wrong...the fish are not there!! So having and depending on previously known community hole or pirate waypoint spots may cause their defeat as they are likely fishing where fish used to be...not having enough skill to find them today. "History Fishing" will beat them every time. :))
Fishing in the moment and current conditions and pattern..based on knowledge, experience and skill...that wins...spots do not.
Even cheaters spotting for someone the same day is prob a waste...fish move hour to hour, baitfish move, current stops and starts and on and on...spot hopping is a guaranteed recipe for failure.
Tommy
Prostaff
Lowrance/Navico

[jjjaymmman]

Hi Mak, thanks for continuing good comments....the point I am making is to watch the Lat/Lon coordinates on the screen as you move the cursor either on screen or trackback. Move it a few inches off the stump target and the data changes significantly. When you mark that exact spot...it is marked with the ONLY LAT/LON address on this earth..the only spot...That is totally independent of where the transducer/head unit was at a past point in time. Maybe we are viewing this from different positions but I know that works really well because I use it and have been for years. Probably half of my 2400 waypoints are done that way and I admit to readjusting them once on the water..but not by much...that address is VERY close. Certainly close enough for reaffirming the spot. When you idle over a stump and hit the waypoint button that way, I agree with you based on the location and perspective at that moment, thus the "offset" between the transducer and GPS receiver. So that is a discussion which will probably never end :)

Another situation is when someone sends me a "spot". That is always using only the LAT/LON and I manually put that on the screen and mark it, name it etc. So that instance further makes the point that the coordinates do in fact exactly (closely) mark a spot. I receive these and also send them many times with tournament buddies so it is reasonably accurate. I was at BassFest on KY lake a couple years ago in an Elite Pros boat. I just sent a "spot" that produced incredibly well to a friend for his upcoming tournament there. I am confident I put him on a very likely ledge spot..depending obviously on conditions. Point is...he can find it.

Many times I am over a spot on a spot before I decide it is worth marking and I use trackback or if it is still on screen use the cursor to mark it...AND the coordinates change as I move to make the mark. It is an absolute fact that marking in that way puts it dead on a spot with new Lat/Lon regardless even if I drifted a long way off. It works..but that is ONE method and I am not saying that your point of marking as "seen on screen at a point in time" is wrong. I like to use my method of marking after the fact and off water marking/planning....since it has worked well for me and I know first hand that the Elite Pros use that practice among other methods off season to create new info maps and spots.
I have made maps for some of them and marked the higher productive spots for them.
Tommy
Prostaff Lowrance/Navico
Prostaff Marine Specialist/Navionics

Here you go, this is the full message you asked for Prostaff1. Below are some quotes from that message.

"I have made maps for some of them and marked the higher productive spots for them."

"I just sent a "spot" that produced incredibly well to a friend for his upcoming tournament there. I am confident I put him on a very likely ledge spot..depending obviously on conditions. Point is...he can find it. "

[prostaff1]

Ok I recall that location and it is not a particular spot but a location on one of my favorite..and community hole ledges south of Paris Landing. There is NOT a "spot" on that ledge since the ledge is at least 1/4 - 1/2 mile long..the spot would be a general location to find a ledge to be checked for fish...depending obviously on current. Had a house on KY Lake for years and that was one of my spots also as well as every other angler on the lake...So I shared that with him..He is not a pro but a weekend angler. He also came by my house once and I mapped several creeks for him with highlighted points, drops, saddles etc where I have had success. I have done those for years even with paper maps for friends. Nothing was ever taken from any Pro information , Not ever.
I think I have or had personally well over 500 waypoints on KY Lake, none of which are pirate spots. Although I was offered the $50 full pirate SD card with most of the Pros spots after a tournament, for obvious reasons I never accepted it. That would put me in that scumbucket category so I refused. At a Pre Tournament dinner few years back, one of the Pros asked me about his new units (requiring micro) not accepting his standard Navionics SD cards...he had no card to use. He said he checked with Trip and was told that if I gave him a standard off the rack typical Bass Pro retail type Navionics card with no modifications that he could accept that. No problem. I did NOT set up his units or enter his boat. That was my call alone and I considered it too close to "help" and did not want to get him DQ'd. All above board. We do know the rules and follow them to the letter.
Tommy
Prostaff
Lowrance/Navico
Tommy
Prostaff
Lowrance/Navico

[jjjaymmman]

I have no innuendos Prostaff1. I responded to your statement above.

When you say you gave someone a spot for an upcoming tournament, that contradicts your following statement in which you said you've never done so...

Historical spots don't always produce, but some actually do. Point is, you said you gave the guy a spot before his upcoming tournament, he did not find it on his own. That's a distinct and exact spot (as you say) possibly giving him an advantage.

I have 3 spots right now on Guntersville that produce high quality fish. If I'm not fishing a upcoming tournament next week but a buddy's friend of mine is, would he have an advantage if I give him these spots? Yes. And what if you paid to get in that event? Would you be upset if you found out? I'm willing to bet you and every other competitor would!

But if you find justification as to why you gave someone a spot for an upcoming tournament, so be it. But those are your words, not an assumption or innuendo.

[prostaff1]

I can put up with a lot but such nonsense mincing words, not understanding statements or the situations....and make something out of nothing...trying your best to demean, condescend and insult anyone, including me, my personal ethics and others here...nope. I have read most of your posts and I see NOTHING of any valuable input ever, and you seem to thrive on starting arguments and insulting people..So, I will not put up with having my good name, my ethics and my years of good work demeaned by the likes of worthless people. SO, you are blocked...do not bother me again. Life it too short to deal with such people. You are now free to spread your insults. Enjoy :))))
Tommy
Prostaff
Lowrance/Navico

[jjjaymmman]

I'm not insulting people.

Your sentences were complete and I responded to them. And I stayed on point. Furthermore, I did not PM you, you messaged me.

[JFZ]

Whew!!!

[B_Johnson]

I am totally lost guys. I always assumed transducer offbeat was to adjust the “depth” reading. For example, If your transducer is normally 2 foot below the surface mounted on your transom and it reads a depth of 20 feet the water is actually 22 feet deep.
I can’t imagine how that offset could be for Lat/Long (x and y). How would the unit know which direction to make the offset? Does it just make it in the direction you are moving? What if you are not moving?

i thought that was the other reason, other than getting stable direction, for placing a point 1 antenna at the transom. To get you location within a foot or so of your transducer.

[jjjaymmman]

I am totally lost guys. I always assumed transducer offbeat was to adjust the “depth” reading. For example, If your transducer is normally 2 foot below the surface mounted on your transom and it reads a depth of 20 feet the water is actually 22 feet deep.
I can’t imagine how that offset could be for Lat/Long (x and y). How would the unit know which direction to make the offset? Does it just make it in the direction you are moving? What if you are not moving?

i thought that was the other reason, other than getting stable direction, for placing a point 1 antenna at the transom. To get you location within a foot or so of your transducer.

Is this what your looking for?

[jjjaymmman]

Whew!!!

Yup....

[jjjaymmman]

That’s amazingly bad info out of a pro staff guy.

Ah, it happens. Many are product pushers.

[yupitsme]

Ah, it happens. Many are product pushers.

How's about giving it a rest?

[jjjaymmman]

How's about giving it a rest?

What? Are you saying Rumour2u is wrong?

[yupitsme]

What? Are you saying Rumour2u is wrong?

No... Saying your actions remind me a whole lot of a 2 year old at nap time!