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  1. #1
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    Lithium batteries and competition

    I have been looking at lithium batteries for 3 years more or less now. I have priced lithium Pro and Relion and was wondering if they are the only reputable builders out there? Prices have not changed any or very little in that time. I thought back then that some other companies would start offering them and cause prices to moderate some. Is this the main reason prices stay the same or are there other factors someone knows about that hasn't been talked about much contributed to the insane prices. There's not much difference between power tools with NiCad and lithium batteries in prices. Some difference but not compared to say a glass mat deep cycle and a lithium deep cycle. I don't really care for brand bashing but just in general why won't prices come down some as they do with most products??

  2. Member Garfish's Avatar
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    #2
    Tesla Motors is building the largest factory to build Lithium batteries on earth. With a considerable amount of raw materials going into this enterprise I don't see them coming down in price significantly any time soon. So far Li is the best way to store energy known.

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    #3
    Well, I believe there is a reason the big manufactures haven't started making lithium batteries. Not real sure what that is yet. Maybe because they know that the price point will never get low enough to really sale and make it worth it. Maybe there is a liability issue and they're scared of fires or whatever. Who knows. I really hope we(tax payers) aren't footing the bill for this new tesla project

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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by kry29 View Post
    Well, I believe there is a reason the big manufactures haven't started making lithium batteries. Not real sure what that is yet. Maybe because they know that the price point will never get low enough to really sale and make it worth it. Maybe there is a liability issue and they're scared of fires or whatever. Who knows. I really hope we(tax payers) aren't footing the bill for this new tesla project
    Don't worry. We will!

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    #5
    Yeah who wants the world's leading battery manufacturing plant in a future where batteries will play a huge role. States got into a bidding war they wanted the factory so bad.What a waste of taxpayer money it would be much better if it was put towards important projects. Like a wall to keep out those pesky mexicans

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorsin09 View Post
    Yeah who wants the world's leading battery manufacturing plant in a future where batteries will play a huge role. States got into a bidding war they wanted the factory so bad.What a waste of taxpayer money it would be much better if it was put towards important projects. Like a wall to keep out those pesky mexicans
    Well, let's look at their last car project. Probably not who I would have chosen to do business with. But what do I know? I guess we shouldn't have a say in where OUR money goes. Being a "green" company I wonder what the disposal plan is like for leftover or old lithium. I would bet the plan is to just ship it overseas and guess who pays for that? The states wanted the factory so bad because of the federal funding that will be coming with it

  7. Member berudd's Avatar
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rboren View Post
    I have been looking at lithium batteries for 3 years more or less now. I have priced lithium Pro and Relion and was wondering if they are the only reputable builders out there? Prices have not changed any or very little in that time. I thought back then that some other companies would start offering them and cause prices to moderate some. Is this the main reason prices stay the same or are there other factors someone knows about that hasn't been talked about much contributed to the insane prices. There's not much difference between power tools with NiCad and lithium batteries in prices. Some difference but not compared to say a glass mat deep cycle and a lithium deep cycle. I don't really care for brand bashing but just in general why won't prices come down some as they do with most products??
    The batteries in power tools are much smaller and operate in a less demanding environment.
    Bruce
    2019 20 TRX Patriot
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    HDS 12 Live - Console
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  8. Member
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by berudd View Post
    The batteries in power tools are much smaller and operate in a less demanding environment.
    Really? They get wet. They get dropped. They get thrown around. They are treated every way you can think of and keep on working. How much more demanding can you get? I don't buy that at all. They also work flawlessly! What is the real reason they can't provide car/boat style Lithium batteries at a somewhat competitive price? I agree,they are much smaller. But so are the 12v,24,36v lithiums that are used for a trolling battery. Technology moves fast in electronics and even though the prices start really high for say a new lap top,within a few years their price will come down. The only reason they are terribly high priced, that I can find, is the fact that not enough companies are willing to change their production plants to manufacture lithium style batteries. And there just isn't any competition between manufacturers. Relions seem to be a tad cheaper in price but not by much. What about batteries used to store energy from solar panels? There should be a good market to supply batteries there also. If going green is the answer then why don't companies build them for that purpose also? As far as fires go, all batteries have inherit dangers. I guess the only way they will get less expensive is if somebody comes up with something better than Lithium and make them somewhat old school technology.I suppose if you want the best,you will have to pay through the nose for it for now. It is easy to see why people on here won't except them for now. The price over comes the advantages somewhat. I will probably buy some this winter as I am due to replace 2-12 volt deep cycles. May have to loan shark the cash though.

  9. Nitro Boats Moderator BMCD's Avatar
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    #9
    Lithium Sulfur batteries are close. This will drive competition and lower prices. More power density than current Li batteries. And sulphur is abundant and almost free. We shall see, but they are coming, and will be in all industries.
    Bryan McDonough
    2023 Nitro Z21 XL
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  10. Member berudd's Avatar
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rboren View Post
    Really? They get wet. They get dropped. They get thrown around. They are treated every way you can think of and keep on working. How much more demanding can you get? I don't buy that at all. They also work flawlessly! What is the real reason they can't provide car/boat style Lithium batteries at a somewhat competitive price? I agree,they are much smaller. But so are the 12v,24,36v lithiums that are used for a trolling battery. Technology moves fast in electronics and even though the prices start really high for say a new lap top,within a few years their price will come down. The only reason they are terribly high priced, that I can find, is the fact that not enough companies are willing to change their production plants to manufacture lithium style batteries. And there just isn't any competition between manufacturers. Relions seem to be a tad cheaper in price but not by much. What about batteries used to store energy from solar panels? There should be a good market to supply batteries there also. If going green is the answer then why don't companies build them for that purpose also? As far as fires go, all batteries have inherit dangers. I guess the only way they will get less expensive is if somebody comes up with something better than Lithium and make them somewhat old school technology.I suppose if you want the best,you will have to pay through the nose for it for now. It is easy to see why people on here won't except them for now. The price over comes the advantages somewhat. I will probably buy some this winter as I am due to replace 2-12 volt deep cycles. May have to loan shark the cash though.
    Ha, ok, fair enough. How about a marine battery sees a more harsh environment than MY power tools. On a job site with barely skilled employees that don't have to pay for them you are definitely correct. But they are still significantly smaller and probably produced on a much larger scale which does make a big difference. Its much cheaper to make a sell a whole bunch of small batteries than it is a few larger ones. I'm not sure of the relative size but let's say four power tool batteries take up the same space as one marine battery. That means shipping cost are about 4x as high for each marine battery. Also, don't marine lithium batteries come with some charging circuitry built in? I don't know if power tools batteries include that. Also, the market here is very small. They have advantages in the marine market but I don't think those translate to the automotive market. I don't need a light weight, high capacity battery in my half ton truck. Given its a small market it can become saturated quickly. There might be room for two players but not enough room for a third to step in and make and start making a profit that will cover the costs. At the end of the day supply and demand really does set the price. If they are selling their stock at current prices they will continue to do so at that price.
    Bruce
    2019 20 TRX Patriot
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  11. Member
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    #11
    Remember when PowerPoles first came out? The discussion here was split along the lines of guys that thought they were great, and the guys who said "Hell, before I spend 2 grand on that, I'll stick a broomstick handle through my jackplate". Now you look around and it's fairly rare to see a boat without a Talon or Powerpole (or 2). And the price hasn't dropped on those either. Back to the original post, I have Lithium Pros, 2 36 volt trollers and 1 100ah crank, and a Stealh 1 charging system. Never had a problem with any of it. Really like the idea it's like leaving a fat guy behind at the dock.
    Last edited by kstolting; 06-22-2017 at 10:09 PM.

  12. Member
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    #12
    Relion 100 AH 12V $1297.56
    Lithium Pros 80 AH 12V $1599.00
    Battle Born 100 AH 12v $899.00

    https://battlebornbatteries.com/

    I bought 2 of the Battle Born to run 24v Terrova on my 14' Jon, so they are carried up and down to my dock( I no longer dread carrying batteries after 10 -11 hours on the water). These batteries are amazing, they're super light, great capacity, easy to transport and charge pretty quick. Had them for about 3 months now and they just keep going and going. I've only recharged them twice and really not sure if I needed to, they never seem to drop below 65%. I plan to buy for my Ranger too whenever my 92lb Sears PM-2's die. I am in no way affiliated with Battle Born, I am simply a very happy customer. Check them out: https://battlebornbatteries.com/

  13. Member
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by berudd View Post
    Ha, ok, fair enough. How about a marine battery sees a more harsh environment than MY power tools. On a job site with barely skilled employees that don't have to pay for them you are definitely correct. But they are still significantly smaller and probably produced on a much larger scale which does make a big difference. Its much cheaper to make a sell a whole bunch of small batteries than it is a few larger ones. I'm not sure of the relative size but let's say four power tool batteries take up the same space as one marine battery. That means shipping cost are about 4x as high for each marine battery. Also, don't marine lithium batteries come with some charging circuitry built in? I don't know if power tools batteries include that. Also, the market here is very small. They have advantages in the marine market but I don't think those translate to the automotive market. I don't need a light weight, high capacity battery in my half ton truck. Given its a small market it can become saturated quickly. There might be room for two players but not enough room for a third to step in and make and start making a profit that will cover the costs. At the end of the day supply and demand really does set the price. If they are selling their stock at current prices they will continue to do so at that price.
    True! As long as they can sell them at the price they are and you are the only game in town,they will come!And yes power tool batteries have protection circuits built in also. That's why they shut off before they are totally dead. They also have their own special chargers that make them work at nearly 100% and keeps from overcharging also.

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    #14
    Will do! Thanks

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartgl View Post
    Relion 100 AH 12V $1297.56
    Lithium Pros 80 AH 12V $1599.00
    Battle Born 100 AH 12v $899.00

    https://battlebornbatteries.com/

    I bought 2 of the Battle Born to run 24v Terrova on my 14' Jon, so they are carried up and down to my dock( I no longer dread carrying batteries after 10 -11 hours on the water). These batteries are amazing, they're super light, great capacity, easy to transport and charge pretty quick. Had them for about 3 months now and they just keep going and going. I've only recharged them twice and really not sure if I needed to, they never seem to drop below 65%. I plan to buy for my Ranger too whenever my 92lb Sears PM-2's die. I am in no way affiliated with Battle Born, I am simply a very happy customer. Check them out: https://battlebornbatteries.com/
    Nice, had not heard of battle born yet. I'll keep an eye on them.
    Chris

    2020 Nitro Z19 Pro w/ 200 ProXS

  16. Member dean c's Avatar
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    #16
    Spent some time researching the "battleborn" lithiums this afternoon. Seems like they are the real deal. Someone from the company is active on an rv forum and the post's he puts up sound very knowledgeable...They only are making a 12 volt 100AH unit as of now, the website is solid, and the price is much more reasonable..with the caveat that warranty is only 3 years.

    heres the thread..the battleborn guy checks in on page 2 or 3.

    http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...es-162132.html

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dean c View Post
    Spent some time researching the "battleborn" lithiums this afternoon. Seems like they are the real deal. Someone from the company is active on an rv forum and the post's he puts up sound very knowledgeable...They only are making a 12 volt 100AH unit as of now, the website is solid, and the price is much more reasonable..with the caveat that warranty is only 3 years.

    heres the thread..the battleborn guy checks in on page 2 or 3.

    http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...es-162132.html
    He says something in that thread about not letting lithium batteries get above 170* or some part melts. I would bet on a good 100 degree day out on the lake the internal temps get pretty high

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    #18
    those prices are msrp. Call relion, you may be surprised. When I purchased mine they had 6 year full warranty and a free charger. Not sure what they are offering now but tell him I sent you


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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TroyBoy30 View Post
    those prices are msrp. Call relion, you may be surprised. When I purchased mine they had 6 year full warranty and a free charger. Not sure what they are offering now but tell him I sent you

    Troy boy, I am looking for a Relion dealer close enough to my area to drive and pick up the batteries. shipping them is highway robbery. there used to be a guy in Arkansas that sold them but cant remember who the guy was or exactly how to get in touch. I was going to wait untill my yearly bonus check comes in from my retirement to purchase them but looks like my 8 year old Optima's have told me to do it soon. do you know of anyone within a 5-6 hr drive to deal with?? I will buy at least 2-75 amp hrs and a charger and if price is good enough might get a cranking battery also.

  20. BBC SPONSOR
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    #20
    I can tell u this a battle born battery can not be used as a cranking battery for a pro xs motor. Great people to talk to and I feel they do make a good product but they are for trolling motor only.. The bms will not allow the battery to start a pro xs.

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