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  1. Member dean c's Avatar
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    #141
    Quote Originally Posted by huntertn View Post
    Probably have done zero testing with lithium and publish that as a warranty "out". If anything Lithium will let you run longer on a lower thrust setting..which should in theory result in lower motor temps.

  2. Member
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    #142
    Crazy. If I did not read it on the MK website I would not have believed it was there.

  3. Honda / Raymarine Moderator Hickory Legend's Avatar
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    #143
    My last 3 boats and my new one have run a Minn Kota 36 volt powered by lithium’s with out any issues!!

  4. BBC SPONSOR
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    #144
    I'm not concerned about running my Battle Born's with my Minn Kota ultrex. The job I had before my current one I worked in a electric motor plant.. We made small a.c. and d.c. motors. I do not see 1 more volt per battery causing premature failure in a motor.
    Last edited by Buck456; 01-16-2018 at 09:34 PM.

  5. mikesxpress
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    #145
    "Minn Kota does not recommend the use Lithium Ion batteries. Lithium Ion batteries run at a higher voltage for longer periods versus traditional lead-acid batteries. This can lead to overheating of the motor circuitry and cause premature failures. Due to this Minn Kota does not support the use of Lithium Ion batteries for powering our trolling motors"

    One of the dumbest things I've read for awhile. And it says nothing about AGM's that perform better than the lead-acid batteries. If I wouldn't have seen it on the MK website I would have bet it came from the lounge........

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    #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Hickory Legend View Post
    Not sure how long they will run but can say I have never had an issue with my batteries running out on the lake. I have fished the big "O" for 6 days in a row but normally only about 4 - 7 hours a day and have fished many days without having a loss of power from my batteries. I run Lithium Pros and a Stealth Pro charger!!
    Never looked into the technical aspect of it all. Just know I have never run out of power with my set ups from one 36 to dual 36 volt batteries. The good thing about two is you can send one back and run with the other unit you get the other back!!
    Never heard that sales pitch before. Buy 2 so when one fails you can have a backup!

    Thankfully I bought 2 36 volt lithium pro batteries so when I sent mine in I still had a backup, but not sure I would consider it a sales tactic. Love the weight savings and my new one they sent back has been great though.
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  7. Member
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    #147
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesxpress View Post
    "Minn Kota does not recommend the use Lithium Ion batteries. Lithium Ion batteries run at a higher voltage for longer periods versus traditional lead-acid batteries. This can lead to overheating of the motor circuitry and cause premature failures. Due to this Minn Kota does not support the use of Lithium Ion batteries for powering our trolling motors"

    One of the dumbest things I've read for awhile. And it says nothing about AGM's that perform better than the lead-acid batteries. If I wouldn't have seen it on the MK website I would have bet it came from the lounge........
    Lol, that is really stupid. Probably a CYA some lawyer made them add.
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  8. Member DrewFlu33's Avatar
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    #148
    Any chance this is a distinction between lithium "ion" and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries?

    All "lithiums" are not the same. It's subtle, but likely a difference worth nothing. I think lithium-ions end up with 3.6-3.7 volts per cell. That's 14.4 volts with 4 cells in a "12 volt" battery assuming the lower 3.6 volts per cell which jives with the higher voltage claim and would scare me a bit. If it's 3.7 volts per cell, that's even more extreme at 14.8 volts from 4 cells. Contrast this with the lithium iron phosphates are 3.2-3.3 volts per cell. Assuming 3.3 volts per cell, that's 13.2 volts in a "12 volt" battery which is very close to what you'd see with traditional technology.

    I believe most (if not all) of the lithium batteries being sold as trolling motor batteries are LiFePO4 which means they're not putting out extra voltage, and are also not the "lithium ions" that Minn Kota says are bad. LiFePO4 also offers a much, much lower risk of fires and all the rest you hear about from lithium batteries.

    Regardless, assuming the batteries are LiFePO4, there's your way around a denied warranty claim. "They're not lithium ions."
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  9. Member
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    #149
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewFlu33 View Post
    Any chance this is a distinction between lithium "ion" and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries?

    All "lithiums" are not the same. It's subtle, but likely a difference worth nothing. I think lithium-ions end up with 3.6-3.7 volts per cell. That's 14.4 volts with 4 cells in a "12 volt" battery assuming the lower 3.6 volts per cell which jives with the higher voltage claim and would scare me a bit. If it's 3.7 volts per cell, that's even more extreme at 14.8 volts from 4 cells. Contrast this with the lithium iron phosphates are 3.2-3.3 volts per cell. Assuming 3.3 volts per cell, that's 13.2 volts in a "12 volt" battery which is very close to what you'd see with traditional technology.

    I believe most (if not all) of the lithium batteries being sold as trolling motor batteries are LiFePO4 which means they're not putting out extra voltage, and are also not the "lithium ions" that Minn Kota says are bad. LiFePO4 also offers a much, much lower risk of fires and all the rest you hear about from lithium batteries.

    Regardless, assuming the batteries are LiFePO4, there's your way around a denied warranty claim. "They're not lithium ions."
    LiFePO4 is considered a lithium "ion" battery. I am not concerned with the voltage either, my AGMs measure to about 13.7volts when fully charges. Or they used to at least.
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  10. Member DrewFlu33's Avatar
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    #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Dh0ckey11 View Post
    LiFePO4 is considered a lithium "ion" battery. I am not concerned with the voltage either, my AGMs measure to about 13.7volts when fully charges. Or they used to at least.
    A lot of people and even companies that sell the batteries call LiFePO4s "lithium ion," but I think that's laziness. In researching building a battery pack for my uses from scratch, I've learned that the companies that manufacture the cells are very, very careful to distinguish between lithium ion, lithium polymer, and lithium iron phosphate. I think you could argue that they're all lithium ion from a battery chemistry perspective, but that's not what the industry itself uses. Were it to get to that point, distinctions involving "trade" names are used all the time in lawsuits about things like this.

    To your point, given that the nominal voltage of a LiFePO4 is lower than the nominal voltage on a charge lead acid or AGM battery, that would make what Minn Kota wrote not just overly cautious, but patently false.
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  11. BBC SPONSOR
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    #151
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewFlu33 View Post
    Any chance this is a distinction between lithium "ion" and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries?

    All "lithiums" are not the same. It's subtle, but likely a difference worth nothing. I think lithium-ions end up with 3.6-3.7 volts per cell. That's 14.4 volts with 4 cells in a "12 volt" battery assuming the lower 3.6 volts per cell which jives with the higher voltage claim and would scare me a bit. If it's 3.7 volts per cell, that's even more extreme at 14.8 volts from 4 cells. Contrast this with the lithium iron phosphates are 3.2-3.3 volts per cell. Assuming 3.3 volts per cell, that's 13.2 volts in a "12 volt" battery which is very close to what you'd see with traditional technology.

    I believe most (if not all) of the lithium batteries being sold as trolling motor batteries are LiFePO4 which means they're not putting out extra voltage, and are also not the "lithium ions" that Minn Kota says are bad. LiFePO4 also offers a much, much lower risk of fires and all the rest you hear about from lithium batteries.

    Regardless, assuming the batteries are LiFePO4, there's your way around a denied warranty claim. "They're not lithium ions."
    Good point. Battle Born batteries are a LifePo4 battery. I would also say you are onto something when it comes to warranty claim. Just to put some people at ease I've had a warranty claim on my Ultrex I had no questions asked about what type of battery I use. I even raved to the shop how much I like my Battle Borns. They took care of my problem the way Minn kota normally does.
    Last edited by Buck456; 01-17-2018 at 05:09 PM.

  12. Member
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    #152
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewFlu33 View Post
    A lot of people and even companies that sell the batteries call LiFePO4s "lithium ion," but I think that's laziness. In researching building a battery pack for my uses from scratch, I've learned that the companies that manufacture the cells are very, very careful to distinguish between lithium ion, lithium polymer, and lithium iron phosphate. I think you could argue that they're all lithium ion from a battery chemistry perspective, but that's not what the industry itself uses. Were it to get to that point, distinctions involving "trade" names are used all the time in lawsuits about things like this.

    To your point, given that the nominal voltage of a LiFePO4 is lower than the nominal voltage on a charge lead acid or AGM battery, that would make what Minn Kota wrote not just overly cautious, but patently false.
    This doesn't particularly matter, it's a square is a rectangle argument. All Lithium Ion batteries are some sort of metal salt. I imagine companies will specifiy their battery is LiFePO4 to justify the higher cost compared to some other lithium salt chemistry or to say theirs is best for the application. Other manufacturers would also lean away from over specifying their chemistry if they thought it would lose them market share.

    The info below is from Wikipedia, sorry for the bolded section, I couldn't get it to not do that.

    "A lithium-ion battery or Li-ion battery (abbreviated as LIB) is a type of rechargeable battery in which lithium ions move from the negative electrode to the positive electrode during discharge and back when charging. Li-ion batteries use an intercalated lithium compound as one electrode material, compared to the metalliclithium used in a non-rechargeable lithium battery. The electrolyte, which allows for ionic movement, and the two electrodes are the constituent components of a lithium-ion battery cell.

    Chemistry, performance, cost and safety characteristics vary across LIB types. Handheld electronics mostly use LIBs based on
    lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), which offers high energy density, but presents safety risks, especially when damaged. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), lithium ion manganese oxide battery (LiMn2O4, Li2MnO3, or LMO) and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC) offer lower energy density, but longer lives and less likelihood of unfortunate events in real world use, (e.g., fire, explosion, ...). Such batteries are widely used for electric tools, medical equipment, and other roles. NMC in particular is a leading contender for automotive applications. Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (LiNiCoAlO2 or NCA) and lithium titanate (Li4Ti5O12 or LTO) are specialty designs aimed at particular niche roles. The newer lithium–sulfur batteries promise the highest performance-to-weight ratio."
    Last edited by Dh0ckey11; 01-18-2018 at 07:28 AM. Reason: line breaks were weird
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  13. Member DrewFlu33's Avatar
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    #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Dh0ckey11 View Post
    This doesn't particularly matter, it's a square is a rectangle argument. All Lithium Ion batteries are some sort of metal salt. I imagine companies will specifiy their battery is LiFePO4 to justify the higher cost compared to some other lithium salt chemistry or to say theirs is best for the application. Other manufacturers would also lean away from over specifying their chemistry if they thought it would lose them market share.

    The info below is from Wikipedia, sorry for the bolded section, I couldn't get it to not do that.

    "A lithium-ion battery or Li-ion battery (abbreviated as LIB) is a type of rechargeable battery in which lithium ions move from the negative electrode to the positive electrode during discharge and back when charging. Li-ion batteries use an intercalated lithium compound as one electrode material, compared to the metalliclithium used in a non-rechargeable lithium battery. The electrolyte, which allows for ionic movement, and the two electrodes are the constituent components of a lithium-ion battery cell.

    Chemistry, performance, cost and safety characteristics vary across LIB types. Handheld electronics mostly use LIBs based on
    lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), which offers high energy density, but presents safety risks, especially when damaged. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), lithium ion manganese oxide battery (LiMn2O4, Li2MnO3, or LMO) and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC) offer lower energy density, but longer lives and less likelihood of unfortunate events in real world use, (e.g., fire, explosion, ...). Such batteries are widely used for electric tools, medical equipment, and other roles. NMC in particular is a leading contender for automotive applications. Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (LiNiCoAlO2 or NCA) and lithium titanate (Li4Ti5O12 or LTO) are specialty designs aimed at particular niche roles. The newer lithium–sulfur batteries promise the highest performance-to-weight ratio."
    I don't think I worded my response well. I'm with you that all lithiums batteries are lithium ion batteries from a battery chemistry perspective. Just pointing out the different trade names used for different chemistries, why they're particularly important for voltage sensitive applications, and how that could relate to the warnings Minn Kota is putting into their literature.
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    #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Hickory Legend View Post
    You can jump the lithium Pros you just don't want to leave the older ones with a 12 volt post connected to the starting battery. Folks would start it with the jump and leave the switch on, so the removed the post.



    Yes you can.


    Why do you want to run lithium batteries?
    Faster charging!!!
    Better performance!!!
    Better economy!!!
    Lower Draft!!!

    Well with faster charging, they are all the same.

    On the other lets look at this.

    Deka 8A31DTM, 105 Ah 31.3 Lbs so 3 would be 93.9Lbs

    Optima D31M the biggest blue ones, 75Ah 59.8Lbs 3 would be 179.4Lbs

    Now lets look at the three most talked about brands on here.

    Lithium Pros offer

    One 36 volt 30 AH it weights 25.6Lbs and cost 1599.00 MSRP
    Thats a 153.8Lbs savings over the Optima

    One 36 volt 40Ah it weights 30.3Lbs and cost 2199.00 MSRP
    Thats a 149.1 Lbs savings

    Two 36 volt 60 Ah (running parallel you double the Ah) with a charger weight 55.7 and cost 3499.00
    Thats a 123.7 weight savings with a charger, and you can pull one out and still fish.


    Lets look at battle Born

    Their battery is 100Ah it weighs 29Lbs so 3 would be 87Lbs and cost on the web site is 949.00 MSRP Thats 2847.00
    Thats a 92.4 weight savings

    Their 50Ah battery is 17.6 so 3 is 52.8 and cost on their website 575.00 MSRP thats 1725.00
    Thats 126.6Lbs saving


    Now Relion battery

    Their RB60 60Ah 20Lbs so 60Lbs total
    Thats a 119.4 weight savings

    Their RB80 80Ah weights 28Lbs so 3 is 84Lbs
    Thats a weight savings of 95.4Lbs

    Their RB100 100Ah 32Lbs so 96Lbs
    Thats a weight savings of 83.4

    There is no prices listed on anyplace I have checked, I did call the contact number and was told I had to get a price thru a dealer, No charges came with it unless the dealer thru it in. Talked like 1000.00 each for the battery would be what I would be looking at thru a dealer.

    The lithium Pro offer a 39Lb + the weight of the charger over Relion RB100, and a 31.3 + the weight of the charger savings over battle born.


    Not sure what batteries you are running but Im sure its somewhere between the two so you can now see about what weight with which system you go with.

    This info came from all their website.
    That AGM DEKA spec of 31.3 is in kg, everything I see is 69lbs
    Just an FYI
    Mike

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