More bad news for Garmin from Customs and Border Patrol

[Larry3215]

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/2017/0...n-patent-case/

“CBP issued its own 47-page decision, independent of the ITC judge’s 76-page decision,” Navico CEO Leif Ottosson told Trade Only Today in an email. “Both arrived at the same conclusion: that Garmin’s tilted design products infringe Navico’s patents. In Navico’s view, Garmin may no longer import or sell its GT-series DownVu transducers or head units capable of operating with such transducers.”

If that sticks.....

[LWINCHESTER2]

Looks like an enforcement decision. Navico won their case. Garmin appeals. But until or unless the case is overturned it's going to be enforced. The whole case was about bundled systems, not units or transducers sold separately. The article in TradeOnlyToday is misleading by quoting Navico. Imagine that! Pretty sure that CBP has no authority to go beyond the ITC ruling in its enforcement. The ITC ruling provides the basis of the enforcement. No argument here though with your post. It does say that in the article. The issue of Garmin selling GT transducers or units capable of operating those transducers has not even been challenged by anyone. As far as I know there is not even an verbal accusation about that. I certainly do not understand patent laws but from my reading of the transcripts available the whole thing centered on bundled systems. I tried to find the 47 page decision but couldn't. I think that "independent of the ITC" is blatantly false. But again, I'm no expert on these kinds of things.

[Larry3215]

Maybe I misread it, but I was under the impression that the big fine was for continued sales of the GT transducers and MFD's that did downview? Garmin stopped selling combos with GT transducers more than a year ago didnt they? I thought the ITC decision was why they started selling the GT transducers separately and only bundling the CV transducers without any down element?

[grout-scout]

Maybe I misread it, but I was under the impression that the big fine was for continued sales of the GT transducers and MFD's that did downview? Garmin stopped selling combos with GT transducers more than a year ago didnt they? I thought the ITC decision was why they started selling the GT transducers separately and only bundling the CV transducers without any down element?

I read the article the same way, this suit wasn't over the patent; but over the continued sale of those products because they were told to stop the sales previously and they did not.

[LWINCHESTER2]

You may be 100% right. I went back and read the December 1, 2015 decision and each of the 5 findings in Navico's favor include words "with their respective transducers" or specifically the GT30 packaged with the GCV10. But then they state:

"The Commission has determined the appropriate remedy is a limited exclusion order and a cease and desist order prohibiting Garmin from importing into the United States or selling or distributing within the United States certain marine sonar imaging devices, including downscan and sidescan devices, products containing the same, and components thereof that infringe the asserted claims of the ’840 and ’550 patents."

It's obvious from the news releases from Garmin and Lowrance that they have interpreted this differently. Whatever the Commission Judge thought was prohibited, apparently was continued by Garmin and issued the fine. Garmin's most recent news release on it, May 26, only says that it doesn't impact any Garmin products with ClearVu which have been on the market since 2016. But they don't speak for the Commission, just their own opinion.

So as far as who to believe, over the last two years, based on this fine, the tilt goes to Lowrance and they say it is the transducer and units sold separately as well as bundled.

And the standard royalty is 8%. Looks cheap now. My prediction - Lowrance wins. After the initial ruling, the Commission didn't buy that any of the three approaches Garmin tried (tilted element, shaded array, stepped array) was not a patent violation. I buy it - looks legit to me, but what do I know. Reminds me of a time my wife borrowed a friend's pressure washer and on the way home it fell out of the back of the truck. I was out the price of a new pressure washer and still didn't have one.

[Larry3215]

It would be informative if we could find a copy of the CBP ruling.

Navico is taking a much harsher stand than Garmin is, of course. They are warning retailers and resellers to stop all sales immediately or risk a law suit.

http://navico.com/garmin-violates-na...wnvu-products/

While all ITC orders have a 60-day period before taking full effect, effective immediately resellers of Garmin DownVu products risk willfully infringing Navico’s patents if they continue to sell Garmin DownVu products, and they could be subject to an infringement suit. Therefore, Navico advises against any distributor, dealer or retailer continuing marketing or selling these products and recommends that resellers seek independent legal advice if they have any questions in this matter. In addition, the ITC has ruled that Garmin must post a bond equal to 100 percent of the value of infringing products, when they sell from inventory or import any of these products into the U.S. during the 60-day review period.

That last sentence is going to cost them a ton of $$ over and above the $37 million.

If anyone is wanting a new GT transducer or a new GPSMap or Echomap ........

[Larry3215]

It occurs to me that everyone agrees that the bundled units with CV transducers dont violate the patent - and Garmin is only selling bundles with the CV transducers now.

So...... what exactly is left for CBP to stop at the border other than individual GT transducers and mfd's that do downview?

[grout-scout]

It would be informative if we could find a copy of the CBP ruling.

Navico is taking a much harsher stand than Garmin is, of course. They are warning retailers and resellers to stop all sales immediately or risk a law suit.

http://navico.com/garmin-violates-na...wnvu-products/



That last sentence is going to cost them a ton of $$ over and above the $37 million.

If anyone is wanting a new GT transducer or a new GPSMap or Echomap ........

You know the price of any ducers hanging around just went up in value.

[TroyBoy30]

in Navico’s view

navico's view really doesn't matter

[Larry3215]

The ITC and CBP seem to think Navicos view does matter. The only view that really matters on the issue of things being stopped at the border is Customs and Border Patrol, and they are siding with Navico and the ITC. Garmin has lost at every step along the way up to this point and it looks to me like its costing them more every time they double down on this.

Have you heard anything from your bosses about continuing to sell the now banned items? Are they talking with lawyers?

[TroyBoy30]

what banned items? you can't buy a unit that includes with a transducer that has a down element any longer. the lawsuit was never about anything but units that were packed with a transducer. it affected a very small amount of the units they offer

[Todd Driscoll]

Note that the stand alone GT transducers will continue to be sold separately. Also, currently available products (both bundled and unbundled) are not affected.

[MonteSS]

I bet all the GT Transducers will be unavailable soon. Separate or bundled. I think Navico has had it with Garmin and will make things as tough as possible on them. Just my opinion.

[MROBIT294]

This is clearly NAVICO's way of continuing to apply pressure through the media and perhaps provide a glimpse of what level they may take this to:

"Garmin may no longer import or sell its GT-series DownVu transducers...."

Garmin already addressed this concern by changing the name to ClearVu. Which applies to both the bundles and the transducers sold individually. This should cover distributors and retailers so long as they purge their inventory of anything with DownVu....

"or"

"...head units capable of operating with such transducers."

Now this could prove interesting, because this could be interpreted to mean every head unit Garmin manufactures. They are all capable of running DownVu Transducers.....no matter what the software indicates.


I have not read any of the noted documents, so I am simply going by what I read on this thread....but clearly NAVICO is going for the throat.....

As an interesting side note, in response to a warranty claim on a Striker unit with a CV transducer, Garmin is exchanging the entire bundle. They will not simply send a transducer for anyone hoping to receive a GT as a replacement. I own a 7SV and wanted to see what Garmin would propose to do for such a claim......

All in all, I do like my Garmin units and their functionality.

[Riccochet]

I see a software update coming that disables the down element of GT transducers in all units.

either way, I think it's time to bail on Garmin.

[Binder]

Hopefully NAVICO and Garmin can get something worked out. I really have enjoyed the performance and functionality of my 7610s. If I were to do it all over again, I go right back to a Garmin.

[MonteSS]

Maybe Navico offer Di to Garmin in exchange for rights to Panoptix? LOL

[fishin couillon]

Maybe Navico offer Di to Garmin in exchange for rights to Panoptix? LOL

Now that would be nice....but then again Navico is more interested in having videos play on the units instead of making it useful for fishing....

[Astrochris]

I see a software update coming that disables the down element of GT transducers in all units.

either way, I think it's time to bail on Garmin.

Bail on Garmin??? Now there's a bad piece of advice... Garmin happens to make a great product, if I was to bail on Garmin it certainly wouldn't be a Lowrance ..if Garmin wasn't a threat to Lowrance they certainly wouldn't be so worried about it.

[MROBIT294]

Certainly Garmin is seen as a threat. But I wouldn't for a second see this as anything but about the value of a licensing fee. It is a source of pure profit and a cash flow dream for a corporation. They literally have to do nothing for that money..... In that respect, I don't think Lowrance wants to put Garmin out of business....just force them into a corner so they have to pay the fee....