yes my talons are mounted as high as I can get them I knew dragging could be a problem I also have the brackets as close as I can get them to the boat im going to check my height pad to prop and maybe start dropping the motor see if that helps if all else fails I will remove the foil plug the holes and say this was a $200 oops because the talons aren't going anywhere the work and look to cool
Originally Posted by rockfalls
With the right prop, proper P2P and PVS plugs you should be able to attain a decent holeshot. Cbaileys foils work but arent a fix for a bad setup, hope you get her sorted. Sometimes bass boat setup can get frustrating. See if anyone in the area wants to do a prop test/swap day.
Last edited by J Risco; 05-19-2017 at 08:46 AM.
2021 Phoenix 920 Elite / SHO 250
Bullet 21XD / 250 XB (Gone to a great home in LA)
"There is no such thing as a bad day fishing!"
I can understand your frustration because I went through this in 2014 with my Z7 and at the time I didn't know of anyone else who had put 120-130 lbs on the back of a 18'8" boat with a 150. I tried everything before I posted on the prop board and was told about the Bravo FS (at the time the Bravo XS didn't coming in a pitch I could spin). The first thing I did after I ordered my Ranger was to order a Bravo XS because other than top speed it simply out performed any prop I'd ever used in terms of holeshot, acceleration and handling. The only thing the Bravo doesn't do great is power loading. Here is a link to my post on the prop board, the advice I got, and how it turned out, http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread....ighlight=bravo The holeshot problem with Talons isn't unique and almost every post I've read on it they had to reprop. The Bravo (or Fury 4 if you can spin it) will bring a lot of benefits to the table beyond just a better holeshot.
If you were close I'd let you try my old Bravo FS 22p (I put the wrong pitch in an earlier post). I'd let you try my Fury 4 24p but I'm not sure if you can spin it (my boat is 19'6" with a 225). You also have a couple hundred RPM that a smaller pitch will get back.
I can understand your frustration with the foil, I'd be grouchy too if I drilled holes in my lower and it didn't work, but I poached this picture out of a thread on a Ranger board showing an aluminum foil that stopped a slung blade. Chris said if it had been SS it probably wouldn't have dented the cavitation plate. It's already drilled and mounted on your boat so I'd run it if I was you. Here is a link to the post I took the image from http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread....=1#post8110881
thanks for the help I really hate spending $200 on a foil then spend another $600 on a different prop but hey this is bass boating so if adjusting motor and or vent plugs is a waste of time new prop would be next on the list. thought just going to a 23p tempest would be the answer but may need to look at that bravo thanks hope to get out in the next couple days to try my changes and pay a little more attention to rpms and such
Adjusting motor height and vents plugs is not a waste of time. In my opinion its what should have been done before adding a hydrofoil. I was in a very similar situation as you. Even though my boat is not the same brand as yours we have a lot in common. My boat is 18'9" with 150 HP. In 2014 I re-powered my boat with an E-TECH 150 HO. I did not have a jackplate so I also installed a 6" jackplate. I done this so I would have something to mount both Minn Kota Talons.
First thing I done was adjust motor height. Going up in height allows the prop to spin up faster. The higher the prop the less resistance it has on holeshot. Problem is too high is a bad thing. I kept going up .25" until I found out what too high was. Too high is when your water pressure at wide open throttle is too low or your prop slips bad enough on top end that you gain rpm but loose speed. Once I found out what was too high I came back down to what was a safe water pressure/motor rpm. Then I looked at my prop. A Raker II prop has vent holes but they are smaller than Mercury PVS vent holes and they are non adjustable with plugs. I sent my prop off to Mark Croxten and had him enlarge my vent holes so they were the same size as Mercury PVS holes. With all holes open I had way too much slip on hole-shot. I ended up running one hole open and large plus in the other two holes. Once I had my best motor height and best PVS plug configuration I was still not satisfied with my holeshot. I had went from 7-8 seconds light and what seems like forever heavy to 6-7 seconds light and 7-8 seconds heavy. I was not going to be satisfied until it was 5 seconds or less.
In my opinion my next option was buy a new prop or add a hydrofoil. I done a lot of research and the same thing kept coming up. Bravo I FS or XS or a hydrofoil. I was not willing to take the chance that $600 plus new or $4-500 used prop may or may not be the fix for my issue. Plus I did not want to give up the 1-3 mph of speed that people typically lose with a Bravo I. At the time I did not know about Chris's foil so I went with a traditional Stingray Hydrofoil. It has zero effect on speed and nothing but good results for holeshot...that $60 piece of plastic may be butt ugly and it may of just about killed me to drill holes in my brand new motor but adding a hydrofoil cured my hole shot issues and I have zero regret. Light loaded I am around 3.5 - 4 seconds and heavy around 5 seconds...now I know you're thinking I added a hydrofoil and never saw any benefit. My whole point of this post was to say work on set up and get it tuned in. If that does not cure your problem then look at something like a foil or another prop. Think about this...what if you drop $600 on a brand new Bravo I and it is does not improve your hole shot to where you want it. It could be because your motor is too deep. In my opinion there is more to getting a good hole shot than just simply changing props or adding a foil. Work on getting the set up fine tuned before changing props or adding a foil..best wishes. I did not mean to sound harsh. My intent is to help
Last edited by JR19; 05-19-2017 at 03:11 PM.
I'm not sure if that stuff would be a waste of time and JR19 posted up some great advice. I had 25 less horse power than you so it all might work. On my Z7 I didn't have great water pressure to begin with and it quickly dropped as I raised up my plate.
If you ever sling a blade that foil will pay for itself many times over. So there is a little bright side to that. I've thought about getting one just for that reason.
I have never heard of anyone that put a foil on and it hurt their hole-shot. The OP put one on and it did not hurt his hole-shot but it did not help it either. His situation is not the normal results people typically see. In you case I would get one of Bailey's foils for two reasons. It will help the holeshot and it will provide the protection you mention...in your case it should be a win, win situation.
Oh I don't need any help with holeshot currently. I've got a 19.5 foot boat with a 225 running a Fury 4. It pretty much rockets out of the hole. I've got about a 3-4 second hole shot all the time - 1 guy, 2 guys, full tank of gas, almost empty, 1 guy full livewells, full tank of gas, 2 guys full tank of gas. I've never tried it full of gas, 2 guys and full livewells, though, but I don't compete so my livewells are never full. I just filled them to see how my hole shot was with just me and a full tank of gas.
I've never run it without the Talons but I've run a 24p Fury 3, a 25p Bravo XS and a 24p Fury 4 and I'm 69 mph and change with all of them so I haven't really taken a top speed hit with but I'm also not a great boat driver. A better driver might see more of a difference. I also only used the Fury 3 blade one day while I broke the boat in and had it at 3 inches or 3.25 PTP. The 4 blades I'm running at 2 inches PTP.
I'd get a metal foil solely for the protection from a slung blade.
My advice for the OP was based on putting 2 10 foot Talons on a Z7 with a 150 Pro XS in the spring of 2014. So same boat as his but with 25 less HP than the OP has. The Talons just killed the hole shot on that boat. After running a Bravo on that boat I had one waiting for the Ranger before the Ranger was out of the mold.
thanks for the help but as I have posted I don't think its set up I have the motor set as high as I can go without losing wp I had taken all but one of the vent plugs out and have now taken the last one out but have not made it to the river yet hope to try it soon I hope it will help but I have my doubts and no the foil did not hurt anything it just hasn't helped like it has everyone else my thoughts were I installed it wrong or should have done something before I installed it or some how I was doing something wrong the slinging the blade thing I don't know about as I have never seen in 30years that happen (maybe just lucky) but that's not what I wanted the foil for everyone was thrilled with holeshot and low speed performance and I got nothing on either so it looking like next option is a new prop and I can already say im not going to be real happy giving up 2-3mph as this boat is slower than I thought it would be
Posts like this confirm my intial thoughts on these plates. They're nothing more than snake oil.
You might want to check out a razor 4 from Croxton. They are supposed to be great props and a little cheaper then bravo/fury.
Nick Frazer
YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Pin2win201
Rockfalls, I finally put my foil on yesterday, it's a Chris Bailey stainless foil. I got out on the lake today and gotta say it jumped out of the hole Instantly!! I had a lot of doubts but it flat works on my z7. Hope you get your figured out.
well its great to hear that yours works that's why I bought one everyone had great luck with them cant figure out why im different I assume you have the talons and close to the same set up as I do are you running a 24p tempest or something different
Rockfalls, yes I have 2-12 foot talons, and even upgraded to big batteries on all 3. And I do have my 24p tempest on. Before I put the foil on I did test a 4 blade prop. I knew it wouldn't be right cause it was a small diameter (14 1/4) 20p, but there aren't many people around me with with props to use, so I tried it anyway. With the 20p 4 blade it jumped up, but half the time it would slip terrible and blow out. Amazing acceleration, but hit 6,000 rpms like right now. Yesterday, with the foil on, it got on plane quicker than it did when it was new with no talons and accessories on it. I will still be searching for the best 4 blade prop after running one. The boat was like a different boat with the 4 blade, not only the acceleration, but the handling was insane.....I could do anything I wanted and it just did it. Good luck......I know your frustrations and I truly hope you get things sorted out.
They arent snake oil, they also arent magical. You still have to set your boat up correctly. A foil isnt going to make an incorrectly setup boat have a good holeshot. Getting the P2P and PVS dialed in is still just as important with a foil.
2021 Phoenix 920 Elite / SHO 250
Bullet 21XD / 250 XB (Gone to a great home in LA)
"There is no such thing as a bad day fishing!"
On my z7 water pressure was a issue, Mercury scoops solved that problem for me now I can go less then 3.5 pad ht and hold pressure. Be warned though as you come up above 3 my prop would start to slip easier and holeshot got worse. 3 1/4 was the best balance I found.
well went out today all vent holes open 4-5 sec to get on plane 4000 rpms at on pad wot rpms 5600 top speed 61 mph on gps wp 15lbs 2 people tourney load full tank of gas I think a different prop will be the next try don't know what else to do
I added scoops from mercury. Great water pressure now. recommend them.
With a full tank of gas that's not that bad
2020 Nitro Z20 250 Pro XS
yeah I guess its ok I just miss what I had and I know well the wells a full and I have that 20lb limit its not going to be good at all hope im wrong
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