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  1. Member
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    #41
    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    No. Side by side comparison was done only during first 10 seconds of the video, and we see more details on Garmin screen. Then he made pause on Garmin screen and went for another pass for Lowrance - different time and path, and different sensitivity settings.
    You must have watched a different video than I did.

    You seem to think that blending two side beams is as good as using a dedicated down element, even when its obviously not as good. From a technical point of view, it cant be as good unless the down element sucks big time or the software sucks big time. Trying to defend Garmin on that basis just makes me wonder if you work for Garmin or a distributor or? You certainly sound like a company shill or someone who stands to loose money when Garmin looks bad.

    But just for grins, lets ignore the evidence and say there is no significant difference in performance between the two. Lets just pretend for a second that all the CV transducers are just as good as the GT transducers.

    That doesnt change the fact that Garmin lied to their customers about what they were getting. Then they denied it. Then when they were caught, they said too bad for you if you believed us and got screwed we are not going to make it right. You should not have trusted us to begin with.

    Here are just a couple of quotes from Garmin customer support to customers who got screwed. I could post a bunch more if you want, but these give the idea pretty well.

    Got off the phone with them 20 minutes ago. Their official stance is that they will never exchange transducers per memo's handed down this morning. I asked to speak to a supervisor, he left for 5 minutes, came back, and said that I could talk to him, but they absolutely will not exchange transducers.

    The guy was unapologetic and told me that "we've done nothing wrong." When I told him that they lied about the performance of the product he actually told me "no company tells the truth about their products." When I said to him they didn't tell anyone they removed the down element he said, "well we never said it was in there in the first place."

    and

    I am a small installing dealer and nothing was said to us about the transducer differences. I have one 93CV unit out in the field and this person is not happy with Garmin. Fortunately he is a very good customer of mine and knows I would never mislead him intentionally.

    So this morning, I called Garmin to see what they can do for me, the dealer, so I can take care of this customer. Basically they told me the same thing that they have been telling their end-users. They offered no help, explained the transducer was working as designed, and offered me a GT52 transducer at a price higher than what I can buy it wholesale for. My customer has already gotten rid of his panoptix and simply wants to sell this machine. So here I am, a well respected electronics dealer/installer that isn't big enough to absorb returns on the scale that some dealers are about to see. I am fortunate that this is the only unit that doesn't have a transducer with a down imaging element that I have sold. My only option at this point is to list this unit and hope I can recoup some of my cost.

    Anyway you look at it this is a piss-poor reaction to a Garmin dealer of 5 plus years. I have always been leery of Garmin's marketing strategies, such as their lack of Navionics mapping, so I never push their products. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't.
    I could also post a dozen or more quotes where customer support said there was NO DIFFERENCE between the CV and GT transducers, but I wont bother. I think the point has been made.

    Do you really want to be defending a company that treats it customers that way? By their own words they have made it clear they deliberately lie to their customers and dont give a crap about them.

    The actual performance of the transducers doesnt matter in comparison.
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21/LiveScope
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  2. Member
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    #42
    Originally Posted by LWINCHESTER2 View Post
    Glad to see you posting again Larry. You've provided a lot of valuable help to a lot of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by RangerRic View Post
    +1.
    Ditto for you, as well....
    Thanks guys. And thanks to others who sent me PM's and emails. I appreciated them all very much. Aside from being royally pissed at garmin, I have been having some "interesting times" in other parts of my life which has kept me distracted. Im still not at all sure I want to be giving Garmin free customer support, but you guys are friends, so I guess I will.

    I dont think Garmin is going to like it much though.....
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21/LiveScope
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

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    #43
    Quote Originally Posted by LWINCHESTER2 View Post
    Lowrance DownScan is not blended in any units and the image comes from the down element.
    No Just have closer look at Lowrance three element scanning units screen shots (1-st and 2-d) - they have triple (three) blend DI view.
    Lowrance single down scan element units (HDI, DSI) they have single (one) blend DI view (3-d screenshot): the tree which is probably in far side of scanning beam behind the big stone is blended with that stone image which is probably in front side of the same beam.
    The CV52 CHIRP ( the 4-th screenshot) have the same single blend DI view of front and back beams (left and right beams). If it float above those big stone and tree it would show them as that dedicated DI beam, just put proper sensitivity - CHIRP can see up to 300 feet deep:
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    Last edited by vik; 05-27-2017 at 05:52 AM.

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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    No Just have closer look at Lowrance three element scanning units screen shots (1-st and 2-d) - they have triple (three) blend DI view.
    Lowrance single down scan element units (HDI, DSI) they have single (one) blend DI view (3-d screenshot): the tree which is probably in far side of scanning beam behind the big stone is blended with that stone image which is probably in front side of the same beam.
    The CV52 CHIRP ( the 4-th screenshot) have the same single blend DI view of front and back beams (left and right beams). If it float above those big stone and tree it would show them as that dedicated DI beam, just put proper sensitivity - CHIRP can see up to 300 feet deep:
    One of us is confused about side and downview. There is no "front and back" to it, so I dont understand what you are trying to say. I also dont understand how you can tell if an image is blended from the sideview beams or from a dedicated downview beam or some combination.

    Im assuming when you say single "blend" you mean a single down element beam and double blend means blending the sideview beams? What is triple beam - all three?

    As far as things "float above" one thing or another, that has nothing to do with the number of beams. Its strictly a matter of how far they are from the transducer in straight line distance. No matter how many beams are combined or how they do it in the software, things are drawn on the screen is strict order of distance from the transducer. That means things that are in the center, directly under the boat get drawn higher on the screen and things that are further to the sides get drawn lower down on the screen. Its always that way no matter if its 2D or sideview or down view.

    Also, every return for any given ping, gets drawn on the screen at the same time - again in order of distance. That means every thing that is within the "beam" at any given moment gets drawn on top of every other thing within the beam at that same moment.

    Look at this drawing to see how it works. It makes no difference how many beams there are as far as how its drawn on the screen and front or back does not apply. Well, if you are missing the center "down element", then you will loos detail on whats directly under the boat. Also using the side beams means a wider cone, which means more things drawn on top of each other which means more clutter and less sharpness in the images.

    This crude drawing shows how down images get drawn and what goes on with the overlap and height of different parts of the screen. The red arrow is in the center and get drawn higher on the screen. The other arrows are further to the sides - further away from the transducer - and get drawn lower on the screen. It has nothing to do with which beams are used.



    downsqueeze2.jpg
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21/LiveScope
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post

    Well, if you are missing the center "down element", then you will loos details on whats directly under the boat. Also using the side beams means a wider cone, which means more things drawn on top of each other which means more clutter and less sharpness in the images.
    Lowrance uses side beams for forming DI view two times overlaying existing central beam image which itself is a blend of its two sides . Therefore its DI view is triple blended (overlayed) with less sharpness and more clutter.
    CV two CHIRP beams are strong enough and do not loos details on whats directly under the boat if needed sensitivity is set, even without a central beam, having just one overlay:
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    Last edited by vik; 05-27-2017 at 12:34 PM.

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    #46
    All Lowrance StructureScan transducers have a dedicated DownScan element so I don't understand anything of what you try to explain when it comes to Lowrance.

  7. Member DonnieG's Avatar
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    #47

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    #48
    When I asked earlier if he worked for Garmin or a dealer or distributor he didnt respond one way or the other. Im really starting to think he does.
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21/LiveScope
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

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    #49
    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    Just have closer look at Lowrance three element scanning units screen shots (1-st and 2-d) - they have triple (three) blend DI view.
    I am going to deal with the first image as I have a different interpretation of what we are looking at and it is easier to illustrate.

    Consider the following when analyzing the screenshots
    1. The StructureScan side cones are very, very wide from left to right. They reach from directly under the boat to the side to the surface.
    2. The pings for side and the pings for down are most likely alternated since they are usually the same frequency; meaning ping left & right, draw on screen, then ping down and draw on screen.
    3. Actually you could test your triple blending theory, by covering the side elements with foam tape and see if that changed your down image. The down image would be unaffected. I have already tested it by identifying and cutting wires to the transducer side elements; even switching them to other transducers. You probably don't want to do that.
    4. The StructureScan down cone is also very wide from left to right, while thin (~1.0-1.5 degrees) from front to back. The Down cone sees some of what shows on both the left and right side cones but has no way of determining whether it is to the left or right. A better interpretation of your screenshot would be to first look at the down image as the rock rubble appears on screen. At first you might think it is directly under you because of how wide the cone is. Then look at the Side image and see that that rock rubble is actually to the right of the boat. How much of that stuff that shows on the left and right side images tells you how wide the cone is of the down image.
    5. As you gain more experience analyzing side and down images you'll see that what appears to you as blending is simply a wide left to right cone on the down image.

    I do not have proof that the pings are alternated. That is a theory on my part. If they all pinged at the same time and at the same frequency the only way the reception could identify whether a return was from the element transmitting it would be to filter out everything except the very strongest signals. That would severely limit the surface to bottom coverage and that coverage is not limited. The whole purpose of the side and down imaging is the detail and coverage, so my speculation is that there is some alternating of the pings.

    Lowrance does offer a 2d overlay onto the downscan and promotes it in advertising. It would be good for you to go back and look at the Lowrance produced video severely criticizing Garmin for blending side image returns to produce a down image. That's where all this blending controversy first became publicized.
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    Last edited by LWINCHESTER2; 05-27-2017 at 10:53 PM.
    My wife asks if I'm going to fish every day. I can't fish every day. Some days I might be sick.

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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Scuirus View Post
    All Lowrance StructureScan transducers have a dedicated DownScan element so I don't understand anything of what you try to explain when it comes to Lowrance.
    Lowrance having dedicated DI element "stitches" three beams for making DI view adding extra overlays and reducing sharpness, and also bringing false shadows and clutter from side views (see screenshots below).
    CV52 "stitches" two beams making just one overlay providing quite clear and true DI view, and not missing anything under the boat (see CV52 video above).
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    Last edited by vik; 05-28-2017 at 02:27 AM.

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    #51
    Ok Vik. I can see our explanations don't get through so here is your challenge. Go over to the Lowrance board and post your Lowrance blending interpretation and then see what the proven Lowrance experts say. Be brave!!!! I dare you.

    http://www.bbcboards.net/forumdisplay.php?f=136
    My wife asks if I'm going to fish every day. I can't fish every day. Some days I might be sick.

  12. Member DonnieG's Avatar
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    #52
    Leonard, can't wait to see the outcome of this...

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    #53
    Vic isn't a Garmin guy as far as I know, think he used to post on Crappie.com electronics forum some. If I remember right from old threads on there he felt like the blended stuff i.e. Hbird core series was a more accurate picture under boat than what Lowrance did with the dedicated crystal or Hbird dedicated crystal xducer Di only units. I am not going to try to explain his reasoning, all that stuff hurts my head. I personally much prefer the imaging and data I get from my Garmin Gt transducers over the blended Hbird core series Di.

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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by pab1981 View Post
    I personally much prefer the imaging and data I get from my Garmin Gt transducers over the blended Hbird core series Di.
    and I would prefer Garmin G52 transducer DI over the blended Hbird core series DI, over the blended Lowrance three element series DI, and over the blended Garmin CV series DI, because GT52 uses only central beam for DI and gathers less clutter from sides than they do. But it is not true that CV CHIRP misses something below the boat above bottom line (what DI is used for) or have poor images - it is just a matter of putting needed sensitivity for DI view. Now we know that for GT and CV the same sensitivity settings were used, I guess about 50-55%, but if CV22 got just 10% more sensitivity it would get clear tree view. CV CHIRP DI have a big storage of sensitivity, and I think it able to have decent DI images up to 200 feet deep. Let us just wait for deeper than 40 feet CV DI screenshots with proper sensitivity settings, and see if it misses anything or not. On CV52 video above one can see it works fine at 30 feet so far: exelent side imaging and decent DI.
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    Last edited by vik; 05-29-2017 at 06:07 AM.

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    #55
    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    But it is not true that CV CHIRP misses something below the boat above bottom line (what DI is used for). Now we know that for GT and CV the same sensitivity settings were used, I guess about 50-55%, but if CV22 got just 10% more sensitivity it would get clear tree view.
    Well at least we do have something we agree on. With blended DI (some Humminbird and all Garmin CV-xx), there is not a gap beneath the boat. The returns are weaker on the edges of the cone than at the center but the cone width is certainly wide enough to see under the boat. That is proven over and over when looking at side imaging shots and something shows up on both the left and right side. When that happens we know that the object is very nearly directly under the boat. On SideVu Garmin uses the terms contrast and brightness. Contrast was DEFAULT and brightness was AUTO MED. That leaves it to the software engineers to adjust the unit for the best image. For my personal use ordinarily I have both set very high to emphasize suspended targets, but doing that bleaches out all structure detail.

    Vik. You're riding a sinking ship and losing credibility. On this board there are several that insist on factual, objective assessments of performance. Yes, we split hairs. So I will summarize what several have concluded, based upon years of serious research, analyzing posts from several sources, personal experience, and company experts. If you want to dispute this, you need to offer more than just your opinion. You'll need some proof.

    1. Blended DI on some Humminbird units and all Garmin CV is not as detailed as DI produced from a single non-blended DI element.
    2. Humminbird on specific DI units and on some other specific units produce a non-blended DI image produced from a single DI element.
    3. Raymarine and Lowrance do not produce a blended DI image on any units.
    4. Garmin's DI images is blended using CV transducers and non-blended using GT transducers.
    5. Settings can be adjusted to improve blended DI images. They can also be adjusted to improve non-blended DI images. The best obtainable blended DI images will not be as good as the best obtainable non-blended DI images regardless of brand.
    My wife asks if I'm going to fish every day. I can't fish every day. Some days I might be sick.

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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DonnieG View Post
    Leonard, can't wait to see the outcome of this...
    Am with you Donnie

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    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by LWINCHESTER2 View Post

    3. Raymarine and Lowrance do not produce a blended DI image on any units.

    5. Settings can be adjusted to improve blended DI images. They can also be adjusted to improve non-blended DI images. The best obtainable blended DI images will not be as good as the best obtainable non-blended DI images regardless of brand.
    Please have a look at the screnshots below: GT52 uses just one central DI beam, although its view at 800kHz is pretty narrow it does not bring lower parts of the bridge from side views and not stitching them to DI view.
    Lowrance have the same narrow DI view at 800kHz, and brings lower parts of the bridge from side views and stitches them to DI view, and blending them. In many cases the stitches are pretty accurate and blending is not so harmful and give bigger picture, probably this is why they use blended DI views. To me DI does not need wide range - this is SI job.

    I agree that dedicated DI can do exellent pictures, but two beam DI can do very good pictures - this is the only difference IMHO, and that small difference worth having exellent SI with two elements and two wide beams.
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    Last edited by vik; 05-29-2017 at 12:41 PM.

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    #58
    Vik. We have no where to go here. You refuse to turn loose of this concept that you dreamed up. And it's true unless somehow someone makes you see it's not. That's not how science works. On the Lowrance board are several Lowrance experts. You won't ask them. fishin_couillon, Treeguyus, Team_Colibri, MarkNY, Fishton, Jason Gilstrap. Then there are the board sponsors that sell this stuff and know the technical details behind it. BBG and BOE often answer very technical questions. In the whole world, you are the only person who claims Lowrance blends it down image. You really need to think about that. I went to the Lowrance board and looked for a post there from you on this topic. Never saw it. I wonder why? Here is you a way out. You could just say it was all just a bad joke.
    My wife asks if I'm going to fish every day. I can't fish every day. Some days I might be sick.

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    #59
    I have been sitting this DI debacle out for a while now to let the rawness of the situation die and let cooler heads prevail. Here is my opinion: DI is the least important most deceptive sonar we have at our disposal right now, whether blended or dedicated. I never use DI other than the odd time to get a different perspective on what is on 2D. SI has much more to offer. The only problem I see is the Deception that Garmin used to slide through the new software/transducer CV. Was it a lye from some garmin pros from the direct questions about CV, possibly, maybe they were not even told the truth (looks really bad on Garmin to lye to their pros). For the people that got mislead and bought a CV product, there should be a proper resolution from Garmin. In reality almost all Companies will make bone head decisions like this to try to, in the end make more money. Is the rest of Garmin units features extremely functional and have value for the money, in my opinion yes. I will back this up by stating I would buy a CV52 ducer to get the SI and HW chirp, been it would cost less then the GT52.

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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by LWINCHESTER2 View Post
    Ok Vik. I can see our explanations don't get through so here is your challenge. Go over to the Lowrance board and post your Lowrance blending interpretation and then see what the proven Lowrance experts say. Be brave!!!! I dare you.

    http://www.bbcboards.net/forumdisplay.php?f=136
    He's discussed it with them before

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