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  1. Member
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    #41
    Larry very good info, maybe a good place to continue is tuning/setting up for different conditions. Couple examples I can give is using your scroll speed to "open up" returns to get a better look at what is being displayed. Like when you look at a piece of screen on a 45* angle vs perpendicular to your face the holes in the screen are manipulated. Another is TVG, a 10lb fish at 100' will make the same mark as a 1lb fish at 10', TVG can compensate for that. If you has suspended fish you could crank up your gain to mark or better mark fish on the outside edge of the cone. If you want to access bottom content turn down your gain to show minor differences.

  2. Member
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    #42
    Good idea and good tips Russ. I used to spend a ton of time fine tuning my Humminbird. It seemed like the settings always needed tweaking. I find I dont do that much tweaking with my Garmin gear. The Auto settings seem to work amazingly well most of the time.

    I do play with Range, Gain and Brightness some depending on what I want to see. Range settings are probably what I play with most. I like having my range adjusted so the bottom is just barely on the screen for 2D and limit range on sideview most of the time to maybe 3 or 4 times the depth. That can vary a lot though. It just depends on the conditions and what Im trying to do.

    I havent even touched TVG or any of the other advanced settings yet, so I need to play with that some.

    I think a lot of my lack of playing with settings is due to having Panoptix. I find I tend to rely on it far more than the other sonar screens most of the time.

    If anyone else has any tips or suggestions please toss them in.

    There is a ton of stuff we havent covered yet, so I will be posting more stuff soon, but everyone please feel free to toss in more screen shots for discussion, ask questions, post suggestions or tips, etc.
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  3. Member
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    #43
    What effect does the angle of the transducer relative to the surface have? My assumption is you want it parallel to the surface when you're at idling or trolling speed. But, how much of a difference does it really make? I'm imaging a mount that's at a 90 angle to transom - when idling/trolling that cone in your drawings is under your boat or even in front of it. Better to have transducer at a different angle? Around 20 degrees?

  4. Member
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Too fat 2 fish View Post
    What effect does the angle of the transducer relative to the surface have? My assumption is you want it parallel to the surface when you're at idling or trolling speed. But, how much of a difference does it really make? I'm imaging a mount that's at a 90 angle to transom - when idling/trolling that cone in your drawings is under your boat or even in front of it. Better to have transducer at a different angle? Around 20 degrees?
    Take a look at post #9 again.

    The transducer does need to be sitting level as you are moving, if you want nice, even, symmetrical arches and accurate depth measurements. If its only off a little bit it wont matter much. If its off a lot, you will see it in the shape of the arches.

    Basically, which ever way the arch is tilted, thats the way the transducer is also tilted - assuming you are standing on the right side of the boat looking at the transducer.

    If the left side of the arch is lower than the right side, then the back of the transducer is too low. If the right side of the arch is lower than the left, then the rear of the transducer is too high.

    Lots of boats nose up a lot at certain speeds, so I would check it at your normal trolling speed and just be aware it will be off some at certain speeds. I adjust my transducer so my arches look good at my normal salmon trolling speed = 3-4 mph. Smaller bats can also shift with how they are loaded, so be aware of that.

    Most of the time, its not going to make much real difference as far as getting into fish. There are already several things making it difficult to know the precise depth, so a little tilt is no big deal.

    Here is that drawing again showing how the transducer would be tilted to give that shape to an arch.




    angled.jpg
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  5. Member
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    #45
    Great Stuff !!! Keep it coming.
    I hate to say it, but, it almost sounds like the only way to be sure is to use panoptix
    Half empty or half full asks the wrong question ....

  6. Member
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    #46
    You are exactly right about that. Panoptix is the only sonar that can really tell you exactly where the fish are. NO other sonar can give you accurate distance, depth and direction all at the same time and live, in real time.

    Multi-beam sonar has been around for years, but it was hideously $$$$$$. Like $100K+ for a commercial setup. Simrad came out with a crude, non-commercial forward looking sonar several years ago but it was also way expensive and not live like Panoptix and wasnt really good for spotting fish. It was intended to prevent grounding and really designed for larger boats.
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  7. Member
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    #47
    So, is it possible to use DV alone without the 2d?(I don't have a garmin, still dreaming though!). The depth reading would be more accurate I would assume...

  8. Member
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    #48
    You can look at any combination of screens you want as long as the mfd supports it, so yes you can do just down if you want to.

    As far as depth accuracy, bottom readings will be about the same as with 2D I would think.

    The cone angle is wider on down than for most 2D, so downvu will have more tendency to be wrong on slopes and have a wider dead zone than most 2D - but again that will depend on the cone angle.

    In general, you can get much narrower cone angles - especially on 200 khz - than any downvu, so you will have better depth accuracy and better fish/target depth accuracy and smaller dead zones with 2D.

    As far as knowing the depth for suspended fish targets, down will have larger errors with downvu than 2D most of the time for the same reasons - the down cone angles tend to be relatively wide relative to most 2D cone angles.
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  9. Member
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    #49
    We havent talked about side and downnview much yet as far as the details, but there is actually one situation where they can give you better bottom depth info and a smaller dead zone than traditional. Thats when you are driving the boat up or down hill rather than across or parallel to a slope.

    Look at post 33 again and the following post on following or crossing contours. Because down and sideview have a narrower cone angle front to back, they will both have a smaller dead zone and show beter bottom detail than traditional in that situation. They will also be worse than traditional when going sideways on a slope because the cone angle is wider side to side.

    Quote Originally Posted by mosin View Post
    So, is it possible to use DV alone without the 2d?(I don't have a garmin, still dreaming though!). The depth reading would be more accurate I would assume...
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  10. Member
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    #50
    So, post #39 with map contours, shows how to work an area using the concept from #29 - that being working across contours
    rather than 'with' them. Post #49 shows down/side vu working optimally this way, as well. This 'dead-zone' thing
    is definitely one big reason I am likely missing fish or even small structure spots like #30 (depending on cone angle
    that I am using).
    Great stuff - keep 'em coming.
    Half empty or half full asks the wrong question ....

  11. Member
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    #51
    Exactly. Ive been distracted recently but Im planning to get started on down and sideview soon.....
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  12. Member
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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOTGUN RUSS View Post
    Larry very good info, maybe a good place to continue is tuning/setting up for different conditions. Couple examples I can give is using your scroll speed to "open up" returns to get a better look at what is being displayed. Like when you look at a piece of screen on a 45* angle vs perpendicular to your face the holes in the screen are manipulated. Another is TVG, a 10lb fish at 100' will make the same mark as a 1lb fish at 10', TVG can compensate for that. If you has suspended fish you could crank up your gain to mark or better mark fish on the outside edge of the cone. If you want to access bottom content turn down your gain to show minor differences.
    Ive been under the weather recently and kind of fuzzed up with drugs, so I just remembered why that particular comment was bothering me. Thats actually a pet peeve of mine with how TVG is often talked about and marketed.

    Yes, TVG can compensate for deeper returns - BUT - there are downsides to it and thats not really its main purpose.

    The main downsides of turning up the TVG is that it actually reduces the over all Gain level and it can completely hide shallow returns that you would other wise see if TVG was lower.

    TVG's main function is actually to reduce noise. TVG is listed in the manual under the Noise Rejection heading. From the Garmin manual:



    More importantly from my perspective, is that claiming the TVG makes a 10 lb fish look the same at any depth is really not true UNLESS that fish is in exactly the same place within the sonar cone at every depth. The odds of that are next to zero - especially at greater depths and wider cone angles.

    Remember my posts from earlier about how equal sized fish at the exact same depth can have very different returns and very different sized arches? This goes back to the fact that a sonar cone's signal strength varies depending on where the target is within the cone. The outer edge of the sonar cone could easily be as much as ten times weaker than the center of the cone and still create a fish arch on the screen. That means a 10 lb fish on the outer edge of the cone could have the same exact return/arch as a 1 pound fish in the center of the cone.



    Your sonar has no way to tell you if that fish/return is in the center of the cone or on the outer edge or anywhere in between. TVG doesnt change that.

    So, at best, TVG can maybe, sort of, possibly, if your lucky, kind of equalize the arches at different depths - but the odds are against you and you really have no way to tell if its doing that or not.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  13. Member
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    #53
    Larry3215
    In post#29 you explain the how and why of the "dead zone".
    Would a transom mounted ps30 transducer on the same boat show all 6 fish?
    I guess my real question is this. Would a ps30 be useful to run parallel to a steep bank or contour line as a search tool?

  14. Member
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    #54
    None of the Panoptix transducers have the same dead zone issues traditional transducers have. Dips in the bottom and slopes wont give them any problems as long as the beams can see and hit the fish.

    I can imagine a few possible exceptions to that, but it would only be in unusual situations.

    Fish can still hide and wont be seen, but for the most part, only if they are behind something or buried in brush, weeds, etc. No sonar can see behind walls, humps etc or into thick brush or weeds.

    EDIT: I was wrong about this - see post 103

    http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread....=1#post8207082
    Last edited by Larry3215; 03-10-2017 at 12:29 AM.
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

  15. Member
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    #55
    This is great info that I've never really thought that deeply about before. Thanks for sharing, I don't want to detail this but do have a question (sorry about my inexperience). Now, I have the GT52 which is a chirp 160-240... Just to confirm, I don't have much option to tighten up my cone as I don't have 77 capability... Not sure if there would be much benefit in 160 over 240 (or if I can even select between the two)? Any advice on 2d settings (93sv unit)?
    Looking forward to the SV and DV posts!

  16. Member
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    #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
    Ive been under the weather recently and kind of fuzzed up with drugs, so I just remembered why that particular comment was bothering me. Thats actually a pet peeve of mine with how TVG is often talked about and marketed.

    Yes, TVG can compensate for deeper returns - BUT - there are downsides to it and thats not really its main purpose.

    The main downsides of turning up the TVG is that it actually reduces the over all Gain level and it can completely hide shallow returns that you would other wise see if TVG was lower.

    TVG's main function is actually to reduce noise. TVG is listed in the manual under the Noise Rejection heading. From the Garmin manual:



    More importantly from my perspective, is that claiming the TVG makes a 10 lb fish look the same at any depth is really not true UNLESS that fish is in exactly the same place within the sonar cone at every depth. The odds of that are next to zero - especially at greater depths and wider cone angles.

    Remember my posts from earlier about how equal sized fish at the exact same depth can have very different returns and very different sized arches? This goes back to the fact that a sonar cone's signal strength varies depending on where the target is within the cone. The outer edge of the sonar cone could easily be as much as ten times weaker than the center of the cone and still create a fish arch on the screen. That means a 10 lb fish on the outer edge of the cone could have the same exact return/arch as a 1 pound fish in the center of the cone.



    Your sonar has no way to tell you if that fish/return is in the center of the cone or on the outer edge or anywhere in between. TVG doesnt change that.

    So, at best, TVG can maybe, sort of, possibly, if your lucky, kind of equalize the arches at different depths - but the odds are against you and you really have no way to tell if its doing that or not.
    Yea Larry, while I was writing that I thought you might throw that back at me. So Instead of taking the long explanation, like you have I did not write depth displayed on the screen and assumed the distance from transducer because that is how I think with Sonar. Also I wrote "compensate" and not eliminate, as to not over sell the feature. One more thing, I have been somewhat talking about sonar in general as you have been more specific with Garmin features so there can be small differences between brands and what their settings do to manipulate the returns. Good catch though!!!

  17. Member
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    #57
    Larry, when you start going on side and down looking imaging are you going to be very specific with Garmin? I find there are bigger gaps and differences between brands in this area and assumptions in between brands and transducers can be way off.

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    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post

    The cone angle is wider on down than for most 2D
    isn't di and si a slice? not a cone?

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    #59
    A slice froward to rear, but can be very wide side to side.

  20. Member
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    #60
    Sorry guys, Im still a bit under the weather. I will try to answer everyone in detail later....
    Smokercraft Phantom 202 Yamaha F115/Merc 9.9
    Garmin 7610xsv/GT51M-TM/Panoptix PS21
    Why am I hanging out here when I could be fishing.....

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