Where can an agnostic go to discuss questions/doubts?

[msethsmile]

rds--we don't think exactly like Him, just the opposite. We lost the image of God (sinless) in the fall. Since then, sin has corrupted our thoughts: Gen 6:5, "the inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil all the time."--referring to man. Yikes!

rds---yes, bad things happen. Again the consequence of our sin (as a state). God didn't just get involved 2000 years ago and then walk away (the wound clock theory). God has had His hand on history from Adam to the present. That explains predictive prophecy. In the present, look at your hand. What holds those molecules in place? God does. If He turned His back for a nano second your hand would not exist.

problem of pain---read 2 Tim 3:12 ff; Rom 8: 1, 18, 28, 38-9; Heb 12

[MN1965]

God didn't just get involved 2000 years ago and then walk away (the wound clock theory). God has had His hand on history from Adam to the present.

Which churches/denominations are currently teaching the 6000 year old Earth creation model? I don't ever recall hearing that growing up in a Catholic household.

[cliffordallen]

The old testament is a story of how God's chosen people turned from Him and suffered because of it. Over and over it happened, yet when they forsake their sin and came back to God, he healed their nation. God doesn't sin, therefore he doesn't "think" like us. God is Holy, we are not.
I do not run any Church, I am merely a member of the living body of Christ, the Church. I do not agree with Catholics and the pope, as when the temple veil was torn, the need to go to a man to confess our sins was done away with. That and their crosses show Jesus still there, He isn't and rose from the grave. Every religion out there can pick at other religions, but the only way to heaven is through Faith in Jesus as your personal savior, that died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead.. That is the only way to Heaven, nothing else will do. Any religion that teaches otherwise is in direct conflict with the Word of God and is therefore wrong. Works is a by product of faith and works alone are not going to get you there.
Do some research about those men that wrote the Bible. Do you realy think that men with little to no education, Moses was educated, Paul and Luke were, but compared to todays education, they knew very little. How could they write a Book that would still be relevant in every facet of our lives? Divine inspiration. The Bible addresses everything we face, and what our response should be. Just how did a bunch of sheep herders do that? Investigate how the Bible came to be, dig into the real truths, learn to read greek and Hebrew and read the actual parchments, they are accessible by the internet. How did these things get written 5 and 6 hundred years before they came true? Again Divine inspiration. My Son learned greek and Hebrew in college and we spent hours going over diferent parchments. The Bible is translated pretty accurately, and has been proven by many scholars. As I said, do not take my word for it, dig and investigate. Get Lee Stobel book. case for Christ. He was just like you. He hated anything referenceing God and set about to disprove God existed. He now is a warrior for Christ, he found the truth and now helps people understand it.

[rds_nc]

It's a nice book of telling us to be nice to each other but all the major religions do that. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, etc. The Bible isn't really breaking any new ground. And for the the rest of it they make extraordinary claims without evidence.

I think religion does a good job of trying to teach people to get along. But, when it comes to explaining the world around us or advances in technology leave it to the scientists and engineers.

[Jeff La]

It's a nice book of telling us to be nice to each other but all the major religions do that. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, etc. The Bible isn't really breaking any new ground. And for the the rest of it they make extraordinary claims without evidence.

I think religion does a good job of trying to teach people to get along. But, when it comes to explaining the world around us or advances in technology leave it to the scientists and engineers.

Science you say, start with this

Here's 50 facts I can't explain for you to read

Here's some more video's to watch if you want http://www.6000years.org/frame.php?page=home

[knopf]

I would like scientists and engineers to explain laughter or love or how about the sunrise. I don't as much about his teachings as many others here but when I see the sunrise I know there is a creator. I don't believe I evolved from something either. I believe that Jesus died so that we would be forgiven for our sins.

It's a nice book of telling us to be nice to each other but all the major religions do that. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, etc. The Bible isn't really breaking any new ground. And for the the rest of it they make extraordinary claims without evidence.

I think religion does a good job of trying to teach people to get along. But, when it comes to explaining the world around us or advances in technology leave it to the scientists and engineers.

[MN1965]

Jeff La,

My email notification on this thread included your post with a very good Smithsonian article with an explanation of the great flood. I don't see it in your current post (edited?), but perhaps others would like to read it.

[Jeff La]

I didn't edit it out, maybe it got dropped, Hope this is the one http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...ood-102813115/

[MN1965]

That's it. Thanks for reposting.

What I get from that article is that the story of the flood has a historical basis in fact and has been told in many cultures. On the other hand, the article is referencing a period of glaciation 20,000 years ago and other geological events five million years ago. Clearly, this would not fit with the 6000 year old Earth theory. There is no mention of extended periods of rainfall being the cause, nor of the entire Earth being covered in water. I think if we are going to use science as proof of Biblical events, we can't discount the parts we don't like.

[cliffordallen]

Investigate apologetics, read some of Ken Hamms stuff. Any Church not teaching a young earth is doing what the devil wants, putting doubt in the whole basis of Christ. Many Churches do not teach a young earth simply because they don't know how to. They have bought into mans teachings and didn't follow God's teachings.
We are told that for a generation that wants to see "proof" of God, none will be shown. Jesus told the Pharisees that and it still remains true. You will not have the eyes and ears to see the truth and hear the truth until you come to realize and accept Jesus as your personal savior, then your eyes and ears will be opened.
My personal story.

I was not raised in church, I did not believe in all that junk. People who believed that crap were weak and crazy. I laughed at and ridiculed those "Bible thumpers" No one was going to tell me how to live my life. That going to bars and fighting , drinking, gambling, chasing women were wrong. I liked doing that stuff, my buddies did too. Everybody did it. We fought over anything and everything. Someone bump my arm at a bar, cussing and fighting was next. I used every bad word there is as a daily languge. I was a pool hustler, I made more money shooting pool at bars than working at a job.
Then at the age of 23 I got married, then a couple years later we started a family. OK so things are pretty cool, but I resented not being able to go bar hop anddrink with my buddies all the time. I came to realize something was missing in my life, but had no idea what it was, I had a good job, 2 kids, a gorgeos wife, new truck, almost new boat. I had it all, yet there was something missing so I started drinking more and bar hopping again. It didn't fill the "hole".
To shorten the story, I had my "paul on the road to Damascus" meeting with Jesus. There was an instant "scrubbed out feeling" and I cried like a little baby. I never cried over anything, even broke bone or dislocated ankles. Even if I got beat down in a fight, there was never a tear shed.
I then started going to Church, I had a hunger to learn about whatever it was that had happened to me, as I didn't understand it at all. I had heard those weak, dummies talk about what had happened to me, happening to them, but I knew nothing other than my preconceived notions and beliefs.
I talked to friends that were Christians because I didn't want to talk to some stranger about what had happened because I did not want to appear stupid to someone who knew more about the Bible.
I then learned I was "saved" but why? for what reason? I followed up with Baptism, as the Bible tells us to do and had another "utter completely scrubbed out and left limp as a dishrag episode". This also left me with a burning desire to learn about the bible and what had truly happened.
Doing Bible study and classes with others then began to make sense, things became more clear about the why and how of what was written in the Bible.
I have always been a dinosaur nut, read everything I can get over them. So I struggled with what I was taught at school and what the Bible said. I then dug into what is called apologetics.
Anyway, this is getting awful long. I was at 1 time where you are. I did not believe. science showed otherwise. Now I know that a lot of science that is shown as fact, simply is opinions given as fact. NO human-ape link has been found, even though there are hundreds of proofs there are. True science always show that it is a forced proof. DNA has refuted all of them. Every dinosaur book you read will have this species lived in the blah blah age and mysteriously died off and then these other species suddenly appeared. No proof at all, just opinions leading people astray.
The actual theory of evolution itself leads to intelligent design, no transitional fossil has ever been found. People have to have clothing, we are slow, weak, cannot eat raw meat, easily get sick from drinking untreated water. We had to be created, as we would be on the bottom of the food chain any other way. We were created with intelligence to make tools and clothes to survive.

[rds_nc]

I would like scientists and engineers to explain laughter or love or how about the sunrise. I don't as much about his teachings as many others here but when I see the sunrise I know there is a creator. I don't believe I evolved from something either. I believe that Jesus died so that we would be forgiven for our sins.

Laughter and love are the chemical reaction to a specific set of stimuli. We are complex biological organisms not robots. The sunrise is quite simple...it's physics, we've known that for a very long time.

[rds_nc]

If god came from nothing why is it so difficult to believe that we came from a lucky series of events?

[MN1965]

That going to bars and fighting , drinking, gambling, chasing women were wrong. I liked doing that stuff, my buddies did too. Everybody did it. We fought over anything and everything. Someone bump my arm at a bar, cussing and fighting was next. I used every bad word there is as a daily languge. I was a pool hustler, I made more money shooting pool at bars than working at a job.

Sounds like a good thing that you got your life in order.

What would you say happens with a person like my (deceased) grandmother? Born and raised Catholic. I have no doubt she believed in God from childhood until death. She went to Mass every day and led the Rosary at funerals. I never heard her swear, never saw her take drink of alcohol and she certainly never strayed from her marriage. She and my grandfather raised a wonderful family and were pillars of the community.

Yet, she was Catholic. She believed that the Bible was subject to some interpretation in light of scientific knowledge. She believed in creation, but also that it happened much, much longer ago than 6000 years. She was not Baptized by full immersion as an adult, but with sprinkling as an infant. She went to confession weekly, but never declared herself to be "saved".

Are we to assume that she has been burning in Hell for the past 30 years with an eternity to go? Doesn't make sense to me.

[cliffordallen]

MN I do not know how to answer that. BUT the only way to Heaven isd through accepting Jesus as your personal savior. the Bible plainly states that many times. There are a lot of people sitting inChurch pews that have no idea of the way to heaven. at the rapture, a lot of folks will still be here saying, I went to Church, I did this, I did that. If you do not confess Christ is Lord then I do not think you are going to Heaven, at least not if your are of the age of accountability. The baptizing is just an outward showing that you have received Christ. The rest is all inside.
The things you spoke of are the main beef I have with Catholicism, I think they are leading people down the wrong path. Yes it has been around the longest but that doesn't make it right.
ANY religion that teaches anything other than accepting Christ as the Son of God who came as man to be given on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. is not going to heaven because Jesus states in John 14:6 I am the Way, the Truth and the life, No one comes to the father ecxept through Me.
That leaves absolutely no room for any other interpretation or way into Heaven.
To me, (my opinion) Catholicism is send ing more people to hell than any other religion there is simply because it is so huge. There is no reason at all in the Bible for a pope, or any man to hear and forgive confessions. Simply put, there is no man on this earth that can do that and to practice it is wrong.
The Levites were the Preists of old testament times, the pope isn't a levite. Jesus did away with the need for a preist to "carry over" our sin until the next years sacrifice.
Sprinkling an infant does nothing, exept maybe making the parents feel better. The infant is not old enough to know right from wrong, therefore the sprinkling does nothing except get water on the baby.
Yes you can have baby ceremonies to give honor to the Lord and "give" Him the child, but that is not like the old days when the child was actually given to the Levites to raise as a leader.
I have some catholic friends and we dicuss the differences often when we fish. He thinks he can do whatever and give confession and it is all good and he can do it again. There isn;'t anything in the Bible that supports that. Everything Jesus says to others is (, to go and sin no more). not just say "my bad" and do it again willingly.
It is a very very confusing differences between religions. I am Free Will Baptist. I do not believe the once saved always saved. I believe you can lose your salvation by turning away from Jesus. Turning away from Jesus is denying the Holy Spirit ( who indwells in you when you get saved) so I think the Spirit will leave you.
John 3:16 everyone knows... For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Again a statement of fact that there is only 1 way to Heaven.
That is the very issue with a lot of religions. They say that their way will get you to Heaven, but The Bible says otherwise.
Anyway, these are what I have learned and I am open to any ideas that any others have, only base them on Scripture. There are way way more knowledgeable people out there than me. Maybe cajunbass will give his opinion. and any other who would like to would be most welcome

[cliffordallen]

rd if we are complex organisms, that flies in the face of evolution, everthing came from a drop of goo, just how did things get complex? God is, was, and will always be. He is finite, infinite and forever.

[csurp]

Bart D. Ehrman, Professor of Religion at the University of North Carolina, has studied the Bible extensively and is an authoritative lecturer on the subject. His series of lectures from a Teaching Company Course entitled "The History of the Bible: the Making of the New Testament Canon" is made available here:

https://archive.org/details/BartEhrm...TestamentCanon

Click on the titles in the black space at the top of the page. This is fascinating stuff.

[msethsmile]

"The bible doesn't break any new ground..." --just the opposite. Scripture/Christianity is the only religion where God condescends to become man (Christ). All other religions have man becoming god.

Christianity is counter to science. Baloney. My wife is a scientist (molecular biologist) and two sons are engineers--all Christians.

God came from nothing. Untrue. Faulty premise. God never came into being. "I am" He simply 'is'. He stands outside of time. He invented time so mere man would have reference points and not go batty.

Rapture. We believe, teach, and confess there is a Judgement Day and that's it. One chance. Judgement occurs at death otherwise.

"Sprinkling an infant does nothing." Oh really? God says in Great Commission Matt 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." Who is "them"? Dependent clause--"them" means "all nations". Are infants included in "All nations"? Yes. We make disciples by baptizing them. God also says Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins." Are infants sinful needing forgiveness? Yes. Proof--they die. Rom 3:23 "all have sinned" All means all. The action figure in Baptism is God.--not the infant or other. "be baptized" is passive--infant or other not doing the work, God is doing the work, hence passive. Words and grammar mean things. Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone). We don't get to edit, rewrite, pollute, distort--in short, we don't get to interpret. Scripture interprets Scripture.

Infant not old enough.--to be sinful? see above

"free will" in man is ALWAYS to choose evil. Gen 6:5, Rom 3:10-11

Not so picky--OT is not a 'story' but an 'account'--an eyewitness account to boot. "This is the account of Noah" etc. There's a difference between an account and a story. Words means things. God chose the word 'account'.

[Jeff La]

That's it. Thanks for reposting.

What I get from that article is that the story of the flood has a historical basis in fact and has been told in many cultures. On the other hand, the article is referencing a period of glaciation 20,000 years ago and other geological events five million years ago. Clearly, this would not fit with the 6000 year old Earth theory. There is no mention of extended periods of rainfall being the cause, nor of the entire Earth being covered in water. I think if we are going to use science as proof of Biblical events, we can't discount the parts we don't like.

There are others that support the flood happening https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0907150931.htm Here's some more interesting reading http://beginningandend.com/scientist...s-of-the-deep/

[sdbrison]

OT is not a 'story' but an 'account'--an eyewitness account to boot. "This is the account of Noah" etc. There's a difference between an account and a story. Words means things. God chose the word 'account'.

Good point.

[MN1965]

Not so picky--OT is not a 'story' but an 'account'--an eyewitness account to boot. "This is the account of Noah" etc. There's a difference between an account and a story. Words means things. God chose the word 'account'.

My use of the word "story" was unintentional. In fact, the Smithsonian article would support the idea that the great flood was a real event making "account" a better word.

Speaking of word choices: Obviously, neither the words "story" nor "account" were used in the original Hebrew texts. If the original writers of the books were inspired by God in their choice of words, did He also intervene in each of the translations from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English to make sure the appropriate words were chosen?