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  1. Member
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    #21
    Ok so your using a hydraulic plate to help your holeshot and midrange, BUT the more setback you have the worse the holeshot, worse midrange and the worse backwash you have because of the extra setback and extra weight of the hydraulic plate...plus a Sportmaster has a worse holeshot than a Torquemaster gearcase because there is more surface area which creates drag. The see-saw theory doesn't work in this case because you haven't changed the fulcrum point of the see-saw you only moved the 300 lbs guy futher back which gave him more leverage but it didn't change the fulcrum point on the see-saw. If you don't change the fulcrum point you will still have drag. Just because you have more bow lift doesn't aways mean you have moved the fulcrum point back, but if your making the boat longer with more setback the prop is having a harder and hard time lifting up the LONGER boat. When your boat was porpoising its was one of or a combination of motor heigh, prop, water conditions, too much setback or trim angle. I've never heard of a boat porpoising due to too little setback. You will never run at neutral trim angle on a standard weight 21'10" Bullet. If you had a 21'10" Bullet that weighed 1200 lbs and a 20' Bullet that weighed 1200 lbs the 21'er will always be slower due to the spanded weight. If you have two 2x4's that weigh the same but one is 5' long and the other is 6'long and you try to pick them up at their ends the one that is 6' long is harder to pickup. The prop is what is having a hard time picking up the longer boat. Anytime you help one thing you hurt something else. The negatives of the Sportmaster on a 21'10" Bullet /250 hp out weigh the positives in my opinion. With a TRUE fishing load you may be 1-2 mph faster on topend, but a boat with the same motor, the same load and a Torquemaster will get you on holeshot and midrange and it would take you many miles for you to ever pass the boat with the Torquemaster that is 2 mph slower. I ran several jackplates on a 21xd/300 Promax with a true fishing load in 1998...14" was the best all round. I also ran a 21xd/280 ( Robbie Mayton's boat before he bought it) with a 14" plate to 93 mph and I only tried 2 props (trophy and tempest)to get there. A 280 motor as far as speed is right there with a 250...I've been faster with two people and a load with a 250 hp than I have with a 280 hp and a load. Also there is 8-10 mph difference between a Bullet setup for topend with a topend prop and the motor at Max height and the same Bullet with a TRUE fishing load and a good prop and the motor set a fishing height.
    Last edited by Nichols; 12-19-2015 at 07:32 PM.

  2. Member
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    #22
    Also I've told people for years as long as you carry a light load you can run a 250/Sportmaster on a 21'10" boat, but it has to be light. I consider a TRUE fishing load two 200+ lb guys, full fuel, 3 batts, trolling motor and 150 lbs of gear...most people carry more than this. Another thing to consider is Bullet will void the warranty on your boat if you have more than either 14" or 15" of setback.

  3. Member esdbass's Avatar
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    Ok so your using a hydraulic plate to help your holeshot and midrange, BUT the more setback you have the worse the holeshot, worse midrange and the worse backwash you have because of the extra setback and extra weight of the hydraulic plate...plus a Sportmaster has a worse holeshot than a Torquemaster gearcase because there is more surface area which creates drag. The see-saw theory doesn't work in this case because you haven't changed the fulcrum point of the see-saw you only moved the 300 lbs guy futher back which gave him more leverage but it didn't change the fulcrum point on the see-saw. If you don't change the fulcrum point you will still have drag. Just because you have more bow lift doesn't aways mean you have moved the fulcrum point back, but if your making the boat longer with more setback the prop is having a harder and hard time lifting up the LONGER boat. When your boat was porpoising its was one of or a combination of motor heigh, prop, water conditions, too much setback or trim angle. I've never heard of a boat porpoising due to too little setback. You will never run at neutral trim angle on a standard weight 21'10" Bullet. If you had a 21'10" Bullet that weighed 1200 lbs and a 20' Bullet that weighed 1200 lbs the 21'er will always be slower due to the spanded weight. If you have two 2x4's that weigh the same but one is 5' long and the other is 6'long and you try to pick them up at their ends the one that is 6' long is harder to pickup. The prop is what is having a hard time picking up the longer boat. Anytime you help one thing you hurt something else. The negatives of the Sportmaster on a 21'10" Bullet /250 hp out weigh the positives in my opinion. With a TRUE fishing load you may be 1-2 mph faster on topend, but a boat with the same motor, the same load and a Torquemaster will get you on holeshot and midrange and it would take you many miles for you to ever pass the boat with the Torquemaster that is 2 mph slower. I ran several jackplates on a 21xd/300 Promax with a true fishing load in 1998...14" was the best all round. I also ran a 21xd/280 ( Robbie Mayton's boat before he bought it) with a 14" plate to 93 mph and I only tried 2 props (trophy and tempest)to get there. A 280 motor as far as speed is right there with a 250...I've been faster with two people and a load with a 250 hp than I have with a 280 hp and a load. Also there is 8-10 mph difference between a Bullet setup for topend with a topend prop and the motor at Max height and the same Bullet with a TRUE fishing load and a good prop and the motor set a fishing height.
    Paul, can you please further explain this part of your statement? "The see-saw theory doesn't work in this case because you haven't changed the fulcrum point of the see-saw you only moved the 300 lbs guy futher back which gave him more leverage but it didn't change the fulcrum point on the see-saw. If you don't change the fulcrum point you will still have drag. Just because you have more bow lift doesn't aways mean you have moved the fulcrum point back, but if your making the boat longer with more setback the prop is having a harder and hard time lifting up the LONGER boat." I looked up the definition of a "fulcrum point"
    "1. The point or support on which a lever pivots." So if taking that 300 guy and setting back further only gives him more leverage what determines and can change the fulcrum point? Increasing leverage would seem to suggest that the air going down the hull of the boat at speed would create more bow lift/ or produce more actual bow lift with less force than that of the same weight closer to the transom. Obviously there is a point where the leverage is so great one would need negative trim angle to counteract the leverage and that's not efficient.
    By the way ( as you mentioned) the added weight of the Hydraulic plate VS a manual plate further increases the leverage of the set up.

  4. Member
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    #24
    I see a lot of what ur saying, and I may have worded some of that wrong. the porpoise I described stopped if I lowered the motor to even/slightly below the pad, it was def bc of motor height, but at that point the sportmaster would be worse in every imaginable way. I didn't see any point in running a sm if it's set to torquemaster height if that makes sense? Also, my tournament load is like what u described, maybe slightly more tackle/misc weight but prob pretty dang close. At that load I am currently running 85 with what u describe as a true fishing load but with a lower pitched prop with more blade area than the one in the vid. I think there's more left there but not a whole lot, maybe 1-2 mph max. The 90+ runs were with a little less tackle (all of mine but none of partners) but with added ballast so about the same weight there, just no partner and not full of fuel. And where I put that tackle was in some very unhandy places to get to if ur fishing, but it was there nonetheless lol. When I fish it's much more accessible, which means more heavy things in the front storages. Also, I agree 100% on the mph diff between a true loaded speed and a stripped top end speed, my 20 was exactly 10mph diff and its top end set up was on the ragged edge IMO. I think I have more to gain stripped top end on the 21 than I do with a load. One thing I do not understand is the fulcrum point not moving with more setback. if you have time can u explain that in more detail? And one more question I have that's sorta related- why does everyone say a sm works on a 300 but not a 250? If they are the same weight, same setback, etc, won't the Ill effects on a 250 be the same for a 300? Is it just bc the 300 can usually exceed the speed limitations of a tm or is there something else there? Thanks a lot, btw. Good info!!!

  5. Member
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    #25
    The reason it's works on a 300 hp motor is because the Sportmaster is needed due to the speeds you would be running with the 300 hp motor. Like I've said you can make a Sportmaster work on a 250/21' Bullet but you either have to carry a light or less than average fishing load...most guys carry everything they own in their boat so the Sportmaster would not be a good choice. A well setup Torquemaster on the same boat and same load will run off and leave the same boat setup with a 16" jackplate with a Sportmaster even though the one with the Sportmaster might be 2 mph faster on topend. Too many negatives with a true fishing load in my opinion. You should be able to run your boat around 93-94 mph setup for topend with the Sportmaster and the boat balanced out with little fuel and the motor at 1.75-2" above the pad. A Promax prop may be the ticket because it will have a good combination of bow and stern lift. But when the motor is lowered, fishing prop added, and another guy is added with his load and full of fuel your can deduct 10 mph and have many negative effects of the 16" of setback and the added extra weight of the hydraulic plate. Only a 2 mph advantage IF you carry a light to average load, but with a slower holeshot, slower midrange and more backwash. If you have a Sportmaster on a 21'10" Bullet with a 250 and have a 16" hydraulic plate and you carry a heavy fishing load your speeds will be even less so if your back down to 82 mph or LESS at this point you would have been better off with a Torquemaster and less setback.
    Back to talking about changing the fulcrum point with more setback. You change the fulcrum point with more setback until the negative effects start to out weigh the positive effects...holeshot and midrange are worse yet the topend is either the same or worse. The only way I know to describe what I'm talking about is to take it too far. Let's say you put a 30" jackplate on your boat...too much? It changed the fulcrum point right so shouldn't the boat have more bow lift, and less drag so it should go faster right? There is always a point when things start fighting against each other. That poor prop is trying its best to pickup and push the longer boat. I have found that 14" will do everything a 16" or 17" jackplate will do on topend but the holeshot and midrange are still good. A 12" plate will have a better holeshot and midrange but the 12" plate is about 1-1.5 mph slower on topend with a true fishing load. Remember you can still run your propshaft with a 12" plate and a Sportmaster at 1.75 " above the pad with a topend setup. So if you add more setback say to 16" your still at 1.75" above the pad...the water hits the gearcase at the same place on the gearcase. Rule of thumb is for every 1" of setback you should be able to raise your engine around 1/8".

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    #26
    Good info, thanks Paul!

  7. Member
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    #27
    I feel like the positive effects of setback on a Bullet "peak" at 14". If you could balance a rigged 21'10" Bullet with a 250 on a sawhorse you would get a good idea of where the fulcrum/balance point is. You can get that point to move further back with more setback all the way to the trailing edge of the pad, but you may need a 12 foot jackplate...lol.

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    #28
    It's a loooong boat for sure, very forgiving and comfy tho lol

  9. Member BStrick's Avatar
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    #29
    What about the 20 footers? 14" ideal as well?

    20XDC / Promax

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    #30
    I run a 225x on my 20xdc with a 14" plate, 1.5 above pad and a 26 promax. True fishing load as described minus one person to 85 mph. I was told that it would doe this by the the man who re-built it, wonder who that was

    Steven Eversole, KY
    BLAZER 202 PRO V / MARINER 225 SUPER MAG

  11. Member
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    #31
    I'm running 12" of setback on my 20xd 300xs combo, 245lbs driver, 215lbs passenger (thoes weights are in the buff) i ran 100mph on the dot. My holeshot suffered when i went from 10" to 12". I'd like to try 14" but if holeshot gets any worst its def not worth the gain on top.

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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocko71 View Post
    It's a loooong boat for sure, very forgiving and comfy tho lol

    are you running a 250 xs or xb?

  13. Member BStrick's Avatar
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    #33
    Mine is 15" I was just curious if 14" was the magical number for both boats

    20XDC / Promax

  14. Member
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    #34
    I'm currently running a 250xs. In regards to the 20 I ran 15" when I had my 20xrd, it's fished with a true 2 man tournament load at 84-85 and 94-95 stripped anytime of the yr. it had a 225 pro max, but the limiter had been raised to help get those last few mph when stripped.. It was about 6700ish loaded and 7050 stripped, with different props of course.. But sounds like I like to run too much setback lol. KY bullet did u get the video I sent last night?

  15. Member esdbass's Avatar
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    #35
    Paul,

    Awesome info and great discussion

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by hyperflow View Post
    I'm running 12" of setback on my 20xd 300xs combo, 245lbs driver, 215lbs passenger (thoes weights are in the buff) i ran 100mph on the dot. My holeshot suffered when i went from 10" to 12". I'd like to try 14" but if holeshot gets any worst its def not worth the gain on top.
    On my 20xrd 250xs combo I ran 14 " and all I had to do for fishing was drop the jackplate down and a couple pitches and it would hole shot very fast. Wouldn't run 100 mph loaded but solo was very close with a different prop. I will say I never bought a stock prop that worked worth a crape all had to be worked. My best prop was the hydro worked for my boat and motor.

    Also until I got a few props that lifted the boat properly and got air under it did I realize the potential of the hull.

    The hydro that I ran good numbers on my 20xrd will not hold the bow on my 21 10. It will drop the bow in the 90s, it may hold it without the the trolling motor.
    Last edited by onttr22; 12-20-2015 at 04:05 PM.

  17. Member
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    #37
    I like 15" on my 20'er

  18. Member
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ky Bullet View Post
    I run a 225x on my 20xdc with a 14" plate, 1.5 above pad and a 26 promax. True fishing load as described minus one person to 85 mph. I was told that it would doe this by the the man who re-built it, wonder who that was
    LOTS of great info..ky bullet i have the same set up as you.. are you on the limiter at those speeds with the 26 pro max? im wanting to get one just trying to decide on pitch....thanks mike

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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ohmike View Post
    LOTS of great info..ky bullet i have the same set up as you.. are you on the limiter at those speeds with the 26 pro max? im wanting to get one just trying to decide on pitch....thanks mike
    No I was at 6600 at 85.

    Steven Eversole, KY
    BLAZER 202 PRO V / MARINER 225 SUPER MAG

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    #40
    Also with my way of thinking and I have tried this with a slide rule. If you balance the rule on a edge of a knife blade then slide the middle of the rule out it throws it off balance, changing the balance point ( fulcrum point ). A boat works on the same principle. If you move the motor back it will change the balance point of the boat. As Paul as stated if you go to far the negative will over ride the positive. Best thing to do is give it a shot and see what happens.

    Steven Eversole, KY
    BLAZER 202 PRO V / MARINER 225 SUPER MAG

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