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    Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    The ChampioN World According to Pat Goff

    Well, I have been working on this for a while & thought I'd go ahead and post this so we could have a kind of standing knowledge base. I, for one, have learned much more about my rig by reading Pat’s posts over the years & I hope Lea will pin this at the top so everyone can continue to add to it with things I may have missed... Some of the really good ones in the past got locked out (Pat never backs down especially when the 'Go Fast' guys get him going)... Due to a limit on the number of words allowed in any single post, this will be the first of several of my favorites
    Anyway, the guy knows more about our boats than any living human I know & for that I say

    From Two degrees from center
    of nowhere.
    Smithwick TX.

    ChamP History & Relationship to Viper/Cobra/Fisher/Hawk/Legend boats etc.

    First Champ was a pad boat, tri hull, whatever you want to call it.
    In '76 Storie splashed a Hydrostream and built the 168. That boat, along with Pat Duncan and Bill Pace built Champion.
    Believe it or not, the next boat was in fact the 201. First 20' bass boat built by anyone.
    Then the 184
    Then 176
    Rocked along there for a while with the same 86" boats, all was well. Then the market started creeping towards wider boats.
    1990 Introduced the 190 19' rated for 200
    1992 or so came out with 180 rated 175, 204 V6 rating, both disasters.
    1994 was the 191, 186, late in model year 202. All terrific running boats.
    1997 or so the 221 22' bass boat. The 187 Also introduced the "bass n bay" 187 & 202.
    1998 the 203 came.
    1999/2000 The 206, 198, 223.
    My history ends with Arkansas.
    Other interesting boats..
    The "swift" a 16'8" Ski Boat
    The 201 Mini Miami Vice Ski boat, that was one very very hot boat. Looked like a miniature Cigarrette boat.

    I've left out the "mean" 15, fish n skis and bay boats.

    All the 201's were "V6" Rated, except the few "V8" Rated boats. 201,202,203,204,221 was all "V6" rated. Some of the crew drifted to some other boat companies. I know that Loren Smith is now plant manager for Tracker, he brought Lance Williams with him.

    I'd like to find out where Dave Schlick turned up. He was the most talented boat designer I've ever seen. 202, 187, 221 were all his boats.

    John sold champion to Dave Porthouse, and among other things, Dave had him sign a non compete contract which was quite clever. He knew he couldn't prevent Storie from building boats, that was his livelihood, so he prevented him from building only "deep V wedge" designed boats. Which is of course what the Champ hull is.
    John simply splashed a 482 ranger, added a turning chine, and a little more setback, and there was his boat.
    Porthouse bought champion from Storie in the early 90's, and had John continue to run the company for several years.
    John wanted nothing to do with building anything besides the tried and proven 86" beamed boats. Bill Pace is the one who designed and built the first wide champ, the 190. John left to contemplate his navel for a few years, and managment was taken over by little dave. The later boats, 186, 202,191 were designed by Dave Schlicke, all very fine hulls.
    Storie hooked back up with Bruce Benton, and they are the ones who designed the Cobra/viper/etc etc. Again, this was a hull that wouldn't interfere with his non compete contract.
    To say they didn't want to build new boats is just wrong, they built lots of new hulls. But they were all based on the proven hull dynamics that put champ where they were.
    I was with Champ from '84 to the demise in '01 I only know of Stories actions based on friends in Mt. Home who kept track of such things.
    The "legend" of Stories boat designing skills are for the most part seriously overrated, for every minute he spent tweaking a boat, Bill Pace spent an hour.

    Legend/Hawk/Cobra/Viper, they all run together.
    Here's the scoop, and anything else you hear is just B.S.

    John Storie was wanting to start another boat company, but he was locked down in a very strict non compete contract with Champion. He could build a boat, but couldn't build a deep V Wedge hull boat.

    So, what he did was splash a Ranger 482, added a turning chine, and increased the lifting strakes, and he had him a boat mold. That was the beginning of the Cobra/Viper boats, and they did the Fisher glass boats there also, same hull.

    Storie got runnoft from Cobra, they went flaming down, and he and Bruce Benton started the Hawk boat, same basic mold, same basic boat. '01 came and they didn't have the legs to stay in the race, so that died. The molds were bought and brought to Texas where they started building the legends, then bought again and moved to Midway Ark.

    Just so it's clear...again...
    John Storie hasn't had a hand in designing a champ since the 80's. Anything coming out of champion today is designed by Alan Stinson.
    Legend/hawk/viper/cobras are all a splash off a ranger 482. Modified, but still in the same gene pool.

    It's more honest and accurate to state the legend/clones are modified rangers than some breed of champ.

    Now, here's the real scoop, the only Champion Storie ever designed was the original 16'8" back in the seventies. The rest of the boats were all designed by Bill Pace, Pat Duncan, and Dave Schlick.

    John Storie is living in Oklahoma City right now, and has nothing to do with the boat business.

    Hey Pat, so is my 1996 181 a John Storie or a Bill Pace design or both ?

    Actually, neither. That would be a Dave Schlieck designed boat. The best one at it ever.

    ChamP Hull Design, Performance & Ride Quality

    I understand it, and I can show it, but it's really difficult to describe it without pictures to illustrate.
    I'll see if I can try and describe without looking like a doofus...
    The ride quality is pretty much the "V" angle to the transom. It's simple.
    Handling is the trick, it's the combination of the wedge design, along with chine angles that allow the hull to not get in it's own way, and maintain water flow to the prop.
    Lemme see if I can s'plain this so we can all learn to do it at home...
    take a business card size piece of paper
    You need to understand what turns a boat isn't the boat, it's the motor....
    If you stick your finger on the back edge of the card, simulating a motor hanging off a transom on a square edge hull, whichever direction you turn it, there is a corner digging in, trying to push the hull the opposite direction.
    Now, fold the corners to duplicate the rear corners of the champ hull, it becomes obvious what happens, the corners aren't there to dig in, and just as important, the water from the corners has time to regroup and be smooth again, which prevents cavitation to the prop in cornering. How many boats have you been in, when you try to make a sharp turn, it blows out the prop and you set down? More than a few here.
    The real science is in the chines, but that goes molecular, that quick lesson will suffice 99% of the time. Look at a champ from the back, the deadrise (angle of the V) is much steeper all the way to the transom than on other hulls, that's the ride.

    ChamP relation to Skeeter Wrangler - Hydrostream- Ranger

    Ok, kiddos...let's open our books to chapter "2" and review...
    Hydrostream created the V wedge design, skeeter splashed it to create a 150 rated hull that wasn't a barge. Instant and huge success to the speed starved tournament fishermen. Storie wasn't stupid, he snagged a wrangler and tested it. There were some obvious design flaws in the wrangler, the concave pad is stupid, and it turned like a garbage scow.

    Rework the pad to a "V", added some turning chines, and increase the lifting strakes and presto a hull that really did the job. Look at an original wrangler, it had funky pieces of aluminum on the corners to hit the right number for coast guard rating. The champ was built to measure 86" without the added hardware.

    And there is NOTHING about a lemming wagon incorporated in a champ design. Remember your time line, the lemming hoard had the allison designed hull, then the gawd awful 198/168 hulls, then after '82 came out with the 300 hulls. Champ was building theirs for five years.

    Get it straight so when asked by someone clueless you can be factual.

    Pat Goff
    <img src=http://i56.tinypic.com/2md1nok.jpg border=0 alt= />
    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

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  3. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    What about Champs other boats, bay boats and walleye boats and how they came to be?

    Fishhunter and coastal (same hull) I know were popular in their region, but don't know much about them. First bay boat was the 21, then 22, then 22 tunnel. That was it for arkansas CC's. I really didn't spend a lot of time with the CC's, they were cool boats, but wasn't where I was focused.

    I believe Dave had most of the input of the first designs, they are still an awesome hull for what they were designed.

    => Factual Edit: Previous ChampioN Fishhunter mold shifted to Triton:

    Triton Fishunter 186 is the old Champ 186 Fishunter as is the Stratos version. Had a WI Triton dealer argue that the Triton Fishunter was a complete new boat designed from the ground up by Earl Bentz. I think he must have been a GMC dealer in a previous life. Had one tell me that a GMC pu was a totaly different and better pu than a Chevy pu. You be the judge. I've seen them both side by side. (Submitted by Wall-I)

    Fish Hunter.jpg

    Back to the original topic. I was thinking that Champion bought out Backwater boats and brought them into the line-up toward the end of the Mtn Home days. Is that not right?

    BackCountry Boats, Cool flats boats, I used a 202 for six months, totally enjoyed fishing out of it. Bay boats make a much better all around fishing boat than any bass boat. You have the same decks, seats, livewell, etc...but you have room for three or four people to fish from, better ways to seat them, and you won't start cancer if you stick it in saltwater.

    Bay boats outsell bass boats here 4-1, more so closer to the coast.

    Maybe this will help...
    The "Sea" champs were actually not champs at all...they were the old stratos/hydrasport molds, good boats just different.
    The 22' came tunnel or not in '04 to whenever...

    21 bay champ is a very cool hull, it's a little lacking in interior design, but an amazing hull. Spent some time on a trip to Venice in one, and it never failed to perform.

    Example: 2006 Champion 24 Bay Champ
    2006 Bay Champ.jpg

    The best tournament boat I ever fished from was a 20 Backcountry they had me use in '99. That was the most awesome fishing platform ever..and sight fishing with the poling platform should have been illegal.

    As much Mt. Home as I have running through me, I've got to say, the Tenn. boat is very, very well done. Impressed would be an understatement.

    Don't be a Goober....it's chiNe walk

    Let's look a little smarter than the pool of schmoes out there. There is nothing on a boat called a chiMe. No wind chiMes, nothing to chiMe in on, period.
    The chiNes on your hull are also called "strakes" or the ridges that are molded in to provide the lift and handling characteristics it has.
    ChiNe walk is when your hull wobbles off center from one chiNe to the other, caused by your prop torque trying to twist it off center.
    Chine walk verse 33...
    First, no amount of setup will completely eliminate the wobblies, there is just too much dynamics in motion.
    As previous advice stated, balance is first thing.
    Since you can't drive it yet, you really don't know what your speed is...
    Pats chine walking advice.
    Find/beg/plead someone who knows how to drive to spend a half hour on the water with you. Very easy to demonstrate, very difficult to describe. This will save months of frustration of learning on your own.
    If you have no friends, then here's the program. You do NOT drive out of a walk, you will always drive to prevent it from starting. Once it begins, too late, trim down and start over. I hate to read that advice to drive "through" a walk. It's not right.
    You have a prop rotating clockwise, it will constantly try to flop your hull over to the right, so you will be making a constant left turn against the torque, with small right adjustments. Take your boat out, as soon as you break over on plane, start making sweeping left turns, and you'll feel your boat balancing on it's pad. If it starts to wobble, trim down and start over. You cannot allow it to begin. Make the boat react to you, not you to it.
    Imagine riding a skateboard in a 50 mph crosswind, that's driving your boat.

    Once you understand it's not a car....it's a boat, and nothing about a boat equates to a car, it's much easier to grasp the dynamics of what's really going on.

    We aren't on a solid surface, we're on water.
    We aren't rolling on wheels, we're being screwed through the water by a prop.
    We don't have four (or even two) points contacting a solid surface, we have one point balancing a couple thousand pounds or so.

    The hull really wants to go straight.
    The prop is constantly wanting to sling you sideways.
    Chine walk is the endless battle between those two forces.

    It is just like riding a bike. Once you *GET* it, you'll always have it, but not easy to describe, especially on the internet.

    You have a prop spinning to the right, that's a constant force trying to take everything with it to the right.
    You have a hull that generally really wants to go straight.
    You're balancing that load on a square foot of fiberglass.
    If you do nothing, then the prop wins, and takes everything with it.
    So you're constantly in a left turn to offset the prop torque, like riding your bike in a 40 mph cross wind. If you sit up straight, you're screwed.
    So you never drive OUT of a walk, you constantly drive to keep it from starting.

    FACTS:
    If you wait for it to start, you're too late.
    If you honestly think you are skilled enough to make it quit, when you aren't skilled enough to prevent it from starting, time to re-evaluate your skill set.
    On the scale of 1-10 the worst champ I've ever been in was a 3. Go jump in an allison with a comp motor, you'll quickly find out what a 9.9 feels like.

    We're all born ignorant, no sin in that. Understanding you don't have a clue is a good thing, if you EVER have to trim down, slow down, whatever to enjoy your champ, best thing is to admit your ignorance, and find someone to show you what to do. Ten minutes on the water will save you months/years of frustration. Once you feel what's going on, it's literally like riding a bike. You'll have it for life.

    Just like experiencing a demo ride, once you've done it, you KNOW what you've got, and will have confidence in whatever situation you're in, you can deal with.

    So, your toy doesn't walk, wobble, chine, or act up, you're letting it, be a good parent and teach it some manners.

    Does a ChamioN have wood in it?

    There's all manners of wood. And all manners of ways to use it. All all manners of misconceptions of what happens with it.
    Champion used this as their base construction until the mid-90's:
    kiln dried fir stringers and sub frame, bonded to hull with micro balloon, glassed and gel coated. Never exposed.

    Transom was a 14 layer laminate of wood and glass. Testimony here from people who thought their transoms were goners from water intrusion, after some drying time they were good as new.

    In the 94ish time frame, they changed to a baltec composite, which is a combination of balsa (which can't rot), klegecell and glass. This is the basic construction until they left Arkansas.

    To the clueless, no wood does NOT mean no rot, open cell foams can rot/break down just as easy as wood ever did. Get water in a foam filled (very popular way) stringer, and it will grow mold and eat itself alive just as quick as a water penetrated wood stringer. There is way more to a proper design then just shooting a foam gun in a mold. Have a discussion with someone that really knows like a Rick Pierce, and you'll have your clue ticket punched.

    Pat Goff

    How many different ChamP's have you owned?

    I'll try to shake the cobwebs out and let's see if I can dredge all of them up...
    1984: 184 SuperV 175 Mariner
    1985 184 Super V 200 Mariner (150 decals)
    1985 176 200 Mariner
    1986 184 175 Mariner
    1987 184 175 Mariner
    1988 184 200 Mariner
    1989 184 SCR 150 Pro V Yamaha *stage I kit*
    1989 184 SCR 150 Pro V
    1990 184 200 Merc Liner hull
    1991 190 200 Yamaha
    1992 180 175 Mariner
    1992 184 Liner 175 Merc
    1993 190 200 Merc
    1993 190 liner/200 Yamaha
    1994 190 200 Merc
    1994 202/225 3.0 Carb Mariner
    1995 202 klegecel/225 EFI Merc
    1995 202 liner/225 Mariner
    1996 202 klegecel (prettiest champ I ever had, rainbow gel fade) XB 250
    1997 202 liner/250
    1997 203/225
    1998 203/250
    1998 203 klegecel/225
    1999 203/250
    2000 202 Bass n Bay 250
    2004 168 220 Yamaha
    There were some other "gap" boats that I ran for less than two months for various reasons. They were all great boats, some were world class. A couple on that list were blue ribbon state fair winners.

    Pat Goff

    What is the best handling, fastest, all around Champ, any model and/or year ?
    Nice debate...
    I had run all of em.
    Take the obviously over powered boats (168/225) out of the equation, and the prototype and rare boats (V-8's) and...
    The 202, especially the first couple of years, 95/96 were just darts, they slowed them down a tad when they ran extra stringers in the front to prevent some stress cracking. They just built a few klegecell boats, I was fortunate to have one with a very strong running 225 (carb not efi) that was a hoss.
    203 could be made to get close, but it never could equal the 202 for ride and handling, and was a mph or two slower. Oh, Best handling? Easy, a 184 with a 175 merc flat on the transom.
    Elite 221 Speed

    What it *really* likes is a pair of 225 promax's....
    Champion fitted twin Mariner 225 EFI outboards to a white and red colored 221. They were spinning lab finished 31 pitch cleaver props. Bass and Walleye boats magazine featured that boat on the cover of their February 1997 issue. I have a digital copy saved to my email. Max speed achieved during testing was 96.8 mph with a Stalker radar gun. This was with 50 gallons of fuel aboard and two occupants. (Pic Posted by champion221elite)
    Twin 225.jpg

    I had a '98 203 that was a klegecell hull, 940 lbs, XB with rapair electronics that pretty well matched the 300 ECU output. I could rip a 30" hoss prop at 6,100 rpms at 88ish mph. Fast, yep. Fastest ever? Far from it. Cool boat to be sure, and nothing got in front of me that couldn't get passed up, but still way shy of the blue ribbon awards.

    I was running a LOT of different boats in the 90's. And a lot of different processes that Chuck and then Lance wanted to try. I beat the crap out of everything I had, and could quickly determine if a design was flawed or had possibilities. I was rotating hulls about every six or seven months, don't even try to keep up with the dance card.

    I ran liner hulls in the early 90's, very durable, very smooth ride, then it was determined they were un-repairable so that was scrapped as a bad idea in around '94.
    They built a lot of prototype layups, klegecell was one, I had a couple of 202's and a '98 203 made that way. Light, fast, but it took a skilled hand to drive it, and it never really got the traction to offer as an option.
    There were several gel trials, deck trials, and a lot of stuff they made that I didn't know about until it was turned back in.

    Most (probably all) of these hulls were cut up for inspection, and never sold to the public, so don't bother thinking you can go find one for sale. The only way you could determine if something was coming apart was to cut it up and look for yourself. Understand my purpose was to give a train load of demo rides, make dang sure a skeeter never passed me up, and run them like they were stolen. And for that mission successful.

    What about Cajun hulls? Do they have any connection to Champion history?

    Time sure seems to change history lessons.
    First, so there is no confusion, there was never ever ever any sort of association between cajun and champ. EVER.

    Yes, Genmar owned Cajun. Yes, they shut it down after a fire. Was union trouble their problem? Not really, they build enough boats in union places like Minnesota, that wasn't their main issue.

    What was their main issue was Travis boats, they'd whore'd down the once decent cajun name to the point they were the lowest feeder in the pond, very poor quality and travis forcing warranty claims after they'd beat the life out of the boat was the main culprit for Irwin throwing in the towel. If you notice, after cajun, no genmar boat ever got branded "travis edition" again. Lesson learned.

    The wedge designed cajuns were poor imitations, they handled like garbage, your grannies scooter was faster, and they never grasped the concept of balance or lift.

    And don't think Travis just picked on cajun, they put several boat companies out of business, like sprint. They *were* a semi decent entry level hull, then they became lowest of the low. I know there's been five manufacturers including cajun of the fish master cc boats, they came and went like a fart in tornado.

    If I do get trapped in a cajun conversation, the first question is "does it say travis on it?" if so, it's crap, if not it's probably a decent hull. Tempers do flare, and egos are dreadfully damaged, but it's just facts. When you run your hand under the front deck, or under the floor of a travis boat and find bare plywood? Guess which end of the quality meter that boat pegs?
    Pat Goff

    What about these so called 'Light & Dry' ChampioNs?
    They (ChamP, Mt. Home) did drill stringers (to lighten the boat), in fact it was in the dealers price book. Standard option.

    And (gulp) there was a chopper gun used in the layup of the cap. They used it for a thin wetting first layer so they got a good laminate in the sharp corners.

    "Light and Dry" was indeed actually an option, again in the dealer price book, it was taking two layers of woven material and replacing with nytek, then several extra hours of labor squeegeeing out resin. Net result was about 150 lbs or so, depended on the hull.
    Last edited by Gunnar; 09-06-2016 at 11:31 AM.
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    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

  4. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Patch Pirates

    **Everyone**
    Knows exactly what I'm talking about.
    Hat's on a little tight...cause the heads swollen up from the smell of fresh resin.
    They like to travel in herds...could drown out a F16 with their chatter.
    Would argue with a lamp post, just cause it ain't running the right stuff.
    "Boys, you got to have this here hydro-blaster, I tell you it's the best ride, handling, fastest, purtiest, fish platformingist rig ever built by human hands!!"
    The rumors always start from the pirate caves too.
    And if you stand still, they'll tell you again about that six pounder they caught in their club championship in '95. Best day of their feeble lives. And the secret of getting that "free" jacket when you pick out one of these here purty boats.

    "Custom" "One Off" "Super Secret" hulls have always been a source of entertainment. The funniest thing that happened in that light was early 90's was helping at the Atlanta boat show. Mobs of people, two big ol' boys were polishing on a 190. Howdy boys, what can I do for you?
    "Nothing, I just got mine" Hey that's great to hear!

    "Yep, it's a all kevlar super lightweight hull that was built for a champion prostaffer" It runs 85 with that juiced up merc 200 on it.

    Dayum, that's awesome boys. Who was the prostaff guy it came from?
    "Pat Goff" he's their test driver. Well, you go enjoy that boat I'm sure you'll love it.

    What about those Ranger Ads where they cut-away part of the hull and the boat still floats?

    Here is the physics behind the cut away hulls, and why they are used with such success in lemming advertisements. Certainly impressive, isn't it? holes cut in a foam filled hull floating like nothing is wrong, right?

    Forget the fact that all boats are built today with comparable floatation, let's just look at the holes.

    If I took a styrafoam cooler, filled it with water it would sink down to about....here, right? Water in the cooler will hold it down to a certain level, however if I cut a hole in the bottom of the cooler, what happens? Does it sink? No, in fact it raises up, because the trapped water is now allowed to escape, and the cooler pops up to it's normal floatation level. No difference in a hull with floatation in it.

    If you took that lemming wagon, left in the plug, NO HOLES, and filled it full of water, it would sink to the gunnels, because the water couldn't escape. That boys and girls is why they cut the holes.

    Every current boat would do exactly the same, you can just take the plug out and see similar results. Whoop de freaking deal. But, it sure sells boats to the weak minded.

    If *anyone* takes offense to a rant on sleazy marketing tactics, or might get their feelings hurt by someones opinion, I'd HIGHLY suggest you click to the next subject. If you wish to disagree with the following statements and actually have information and knowledge that is opposite from what you're about to read here, PLEASE feel free to jump in, and state your facts.

    How does one become a lemming? What is the foundation behind the ability to take a quite large number of what you'd consider normal people and make them such blind followers? And how would you go about making this a perpetual scheme?

    Where did this start? Easy to follow that, back in the mid seventies when uncle forrest decided it was in his best interest to be the "official" B.A.S.S. boat, and paid cousin Ray what he wanted to be that.

    What that created was to fill the human need to "belong" and to be special and recognized. Let's call it what it is, herd mentality. It's powerful and it's effective to create something that will give that person a sense of being "cool" Look at an Ipod, and you'll understand the same marketing principles. It really doesn't do anything better than a good MP3 player, but it's way more cool to belong to that herd. It also breeds what we see, a sense of being superior, smarter, and not being interested in any sort of fact that might sway you away from the herd.

    So, how does one get their feelings played on? Fear is a good one, let's cut up a boat and show that. Don't tell people every other boat built will do exactly the same thing, make them think this is unique. Was that successful? Duh...

    Make it powerful enough so that even when faced with complete logic, it won't matter. I'll tell you this barge rides great, and you'll believe it. Don't let facts that it's a back breaking, kidney bleeding design, you'll be so hooked nothing can change your mind. I've actually had people tell me with a straight face and believe it, that a 360 Ranger is the best riding boat they've ever been in. While in fact, it's absolutely one of the roughest, wettest hulls ever designed. Doesn't matter, it's got the decal, and old uncle forrest wouldn't let us down, would he?

    Put enough pros and celebrities in it, all of them telling you a person just can't be cool in anything else, and make you think ol' "honest forrest" is still at the wheel, even though he'd sold out years and years before..again let's not confuse the truth with a good story.

    Show a true lemming what a proper hull design really is, and they'll argue about it. Amazing...perform handling maneuvers that can truly save a persons life, and the answer will be (always) "why would I ever want to do that??" That's crazy, I don't need that. I simply don't possess an answer to that statement, but it's firmly implanted in their brains.

    A persons retention is about 12 minutes, my time is up. If anyone wishes to comment, argue, cuss me out, please, I'd love the opportunity to ever have an intelligent conversation with an owner that can say something besides "it just is". I haven't met one yet, but hopefully that day will come.

    Marketing philosophy's can be different than what is expected and still be very effective. Champion's (Bill Pace) idea was totally to get your butt in the boat, that's all that mattered. Selling a boat on a trailer, or on a magazine ad in bassmaster wasn't going to get the deal done, there are too many others spending way more resources, so why fight fair?

    If I got your attention for ten minutes in the boat, you were going to buy a champ, period. The demo tapes were very effective to get your interest up enough to want to witness the ride and handling yourself. Also made the approach at boat shows and on a dealer show room much less intruding. I have no desire to sell you a boat, all I want to do is sell you a ride, boat will take care of itself. Did it work? duh.

    Lots of ways to skin a cat, the best is have the cat skin itself.... I will hand it to ol' Forrest though, as stupid as he looks, he's a marketing genius. Seldom will you ever see such brand loyalty, in spite of overwhelming evidence their team is all fluff and no substance. Pump it hard enough on television, put enough heroes out there, and make it cooler than cool to wear a gimme hat, and then charge 40% more just for the snob effect...genius.

    More than a few times I've run into a bull lemming, they are the most fun because if you maneuver them just right, they'll bend over, roll down their skivvies and show their true self. Three lone stars at the boat show seemed to be the right trigger to activate them into action. The scenario is sad, but predictable.

    Usually after about five minutes of demo tape would spring them into action..."Hey you the champion dude?" Yes sir, what can I do for you? "My lemming sled can do everything in that video" Of course it can zippy, we'll be at the lake in the morning giving that exact same ride, would you like to show those people we aren't anything special? *This is when the peanut gallery chimes in "Go ahead Leon, show him he's full of it." Yeah Leon, I'd be really interested in seeing that my self. After usually twenty minutes of banter, ol' Leon will be breathing fire, and ready to fight. Don't talk about it there Leon, drag your stuff to the water and show it. And be sure and bring your friends to show them what you've got.

    One out of ten times Leon shows up. First thing I do is give Leon an AAA++ demo ride, the one that'll pull your liver out of your throat. Ok, there Leon, let's load that sled up and you can show me what it'll do. Funny thing, never once had a taker. Not once, ever. I still can't imagine why, can you?

    It might go a little deeper than simple brand loyalty. I will say that I was very fortunate to have learned sales psychology from some absolute geniuses and was able to skim just a little from them. It's served me well, and I do believe that people always appreciate having a discussion with, never talked to, and nothing is as interesting as themselves. And as powerful we think being part of a tribe might be, just as alluring is the opportunity to be a little different, and a little roguish and just *KNOW* you are smarter than the average shmoe.

    The entire process was thought up by guys who knew they had something better, but you can't outspend someone that much larger, but you can always out work them. So, the process of rears in the seats was developed, and worked at hard. It's powerful, without being in your face, and there's was no doubt when you stepped out of the boat after that ride, you'd never seen, or even heard of anything that was it's equal. Let the bull lemmings stand there and rub on their sleds, we'll talk a lot less and take action. It worked, all of you reading this is proof. Would you have made the decision without it? Doubtful.

    So, go ahead feel just a little smarter, the difference is, you know why...
    Pat Goff

    Bimini tops on ChamPs

    I rigged a lot of tops...here's some do's and don'ts.
    Do..get all stainless hardware, not chrome
    Do..get the quick disconnect pins, NOT the screws.
    Do..get the rear braces that hold it in the ready position when you're on the water. Keeps boneheads from stomping on it and scratching your cap.
    Do..measure, measure measure up down, stowed, ready and measure again. Particular check for trimming your motor up when it's stowed down. Crunch.
    Don't...get the slick vinyl covers. Can you say mold magnet?
    Don't bother matching the color...get white everything else fades and looks ghetto.
    Don't just run a screw into your cap and think it'll hold. It won't. Pilot hole, run the screw in, then back it out and coat with 3M 5200 and back in.

    We don't want any champs running around looking like a junior high shop project.

    Pat Goff

    Timing...

    Ok, I'll admit it...*sometimes* I can run my chops a bit.
    1999, was scheduled to meet Ronnie at lake Ouachita for the tournament of champions. My business partner was in Denton, (north of Dallas) and wanted us to sign some sort of paperwork at the lawyers. Fine, I'll do it on the way back. No, please we'll be done in twenty minutes. Ok, get there at 9:00 a.m. and of course it's 4:30 when I finally get out. Fuming? Maybe.

    I'm on I 30 about 60 miles west of Texarkana, as nailed to the floor as the Ford will go, when the lazer detector went off. Oh jeesh, this is gonna hurt. I pull over and am waiting behind the boat by the time the highway patrol catches up. He's not happy. Not at all. "Do you have any idea how fast you were going?" As fast as I could. "I clocked you running 113 mph, pulling a dang boat" Really?

    Then the officer looks at my license, looks at me, and says, you don't remember me do you? (Sure ain't gonna say no) Yeah I'm trying to place you...
    "I drew you in a Red Man tournament four years ago on Toledo" How did we do? "We did great, you finished second, I finished fifth, in fact it was the best day fishing I've ever had in my life" Twinkle of hope appears "In fact, you were the nicest person I've ever shared a boat with, you put me up on the front deck, gave me a rod, gave me a jig and said throw there" I must have been weak that day..."I'll bet we caught 60 bass that day" Wow, yep pretty good day.

    "But 113? I wouldn't let my mother off for 113" Darnit... "But my mother never put me on fish like that, can you keep it under 80 until you get out of TX?" Yeah, I suppose I can.

    Hands me my license back and shakes my hand and got in his cruiser and left...

    It's all about timing.

    Pat Goff
    Last edited by Gunnar; 01-11-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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  5. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Demo Tape Memories...

    Anyway, that tape was the second version, the first was obviously done by amateurs, and didn't get a lot of attention..but not that one.
    First showing was in Houston, Fred Lester had a constant crowd around the TV showing the tape, which was set in front of a big 201. The comments and observations were just priceless..
    Remember at the time, you made a boat decision on a hull sitting on a trailer, pimped by some lame patch pirate who didn't know much, but was certain he knew more than you did. When a potential customer would actually ask an intelligent question the responses were predictable "it's a ranger/skeeter/XXX" What else could you possibly need to know"
    Hundreds and hundreds watched that tape, and for a while, it just baffled the competitors badly. They really didn't know how to react, other than the typical response you still hear today "why would you want to do that?" "that's just trick photography" "they can't really do it" When told that not only could we, but they'd just been on the lake and done it themselves, and can they do it...it made for some interesting back-peddling..
    Two weeks later, Ft. Worth boat show. Champ had just signed up these two young guys, Jeff and Rocky with Fun n Sun marine, to say they were aggressive and enthusiastic is a real understatement.
    At that time the king rat was Jim Pool, with Fin n Feather marine, and he was the top Stratos guy in the country, sold the fire out of those sleds. He also fancied himself (still does) a boat show expert, and spent tons of money on his displays. Ponds, waterfalls, plants, just went crazy with everything. He thought these two boneheads from Cleburne just sold ski boats, and "allowed" them the space next to his.
    Well...Jeff goes and rents the biggest dang big screen TV you've ever seen, set it on a pedestal, so that wherever you were in the fin n feather area, you could see that tape running. And hear it. And see it...
    The show starts, and Jeff cranks it up...oh my goodness, you'd think they just murdered the pope, that little runt comes running over, and screams at Jeff, you gotta shut that off. Uh..no. It's against the rules...Ok, show me. Rants you've never seen before..Pool gets the show director, he goes "no rules against it"
    It was war...marketing vs. logic.
    We had thirty demo rides lined up for the next morning, Pool sends five of his pirates to see what's up, if we were actually going to do it. We did, they did, and it got really heated after that. They sent out a pirate to demo ride the next day, it was embarrasing for them, poor bastage didn't have a clue what was taking place. Fifteen minutes, he was loaded and gone. Cry me a river, build a bridge, get over it...
    When the dust settled, they'd sold forty some odd champs, all due to the impact of the demo ride, and the sheer arrogance of the competition.
    The scenario played over at every boat show that year, it was a lot of fun to be a part of, and see exactly how to take advantage of design features, and let the intelligence of the customer decide the winner.
    I can't remember every ride I gave, it was 1,200 a year for quite a while, but the reactions were 99% predictable. It was a lot of fun, taking on the big dogs, and beating them back under the porch. It was a time when there were dramatic differences in the boats, they've sorta melted together some now...
    Since that time, I've had countless pirates, pimps and nimrods claim to be able to duplicate that ride, but have yet to have a taker actually do it. It's too bad that that passion for perfomance has been diluted, and the urgency to get people on the water just isn't as important.
    Just a few more tidbits...
    We were cheating s.o.b's back then, "fair" wasn't part of the program...We knew the skeeter guys were dirty, and the command from above was bury them at any and all opportunities.
    The single console red/black boat was mine in the tape, it weighed around 850 pounds, light dry layup, drilled stringers, and had a (oops) 200 with "stuff" on it. Don't let the stickers fool you...
    Pace would do whatever we wanted to make the boats run...except put a jack plate on it. He was adamant about the boats run fine without it, and it detracts from the handling. Hot rod the motor, make the hull light, anything but that. As long as you didn't get caught‚…

    That cover on the '88 (brochure) was my boat, wasn't me in it, but my *light and dry* 184 with a (shhh) stage II Pro V... First, and LAST black boat I'll ever have. It was a skeet killing machine. I gave well over 1,000 demo rides in that boat, they literally doubled their sales in Texas that year, a lot of fun....



    The demo tape link [pinned up here], and the responses were just like the 50,000
    I've heard before...

    Why would you want a boat to do that?
    I wouldn't give up my fishing platform for that.
    My brother/cousin/buddys XXX can do all that.
    All boats can do the same thing.
    Those are trick boats with trick drivers.

    However, in the 50,000 responses, my answer was consistent to all of them..

    I'll show up at the lake, and duplicate every single move in the tape. You show up with your Blaster-Craft, and do the same thing. I'll print it on every piece of literature, put it on the internet, do whatever you think is fair to *PROVE* you can do it.

    Just show up.

    Still waiting for the first one.

    Believe me, especially in the intoxicating (or intoxicated) arena of your local boat show, I've had some real *experiences* with proud owners of other craft over the tape, especially the first couple of years it was shown.

    Understand, when Hancock came up with the tape, NO one did anything but stand around a boat on a trailer rubbing it, and telling you how purty you'll be in their boat. Champ guys were at least trying to talk you into a ride before you made up your feeble, drunk mind.

    Then "the tape"...
    They'd watch it with a lone star in each hand, sorta swaying back and forth as the boats turned, usually watching it twice before they gathered up their nerve to:
    Find the lying s.o.b. who made that tape.
    Tell them they're nuts, and how dare they encourage idiot behavoir on the water.
    Let whoever might care, that their 350 Ranger/Skeeter can do everything that is in that there video. And it's trick photography anyway. Speeded up or something.
    And besides, I just spent a crispy on this here jacket, and we can't be going against the patch pirate gods, now can we?

    I've gotten into three sure enough knuckle busting scrapes at shows with drunks who took offense, and wanted to beat some sense into somebody. I've had guys try to duplicate (after begging not to) the ride in their own boats, a few with absolute disasterous results. Endless pro-staffers who would cuss the video while it was being shown, telling anyone who could hear what liars and cheats we were. And we probably beat our dogs too.

    And I enjoyed every single minute of it.

    I have never driven a 210, so that hull I can't comment on, but...if you watch the champion tape at the top of this page, every single maneuver can be duplicated in at least a 198, 188, and I'm sure everything else. They newer hulls aren't quite as quick on the turns, but pretty dang close. They don't bow hook, they don't turn into diving crank baits, they don't slide out of control. I personally don't think the newer hulls ride quite as good in big water, but that's pure physics, a 2x6 won't cut a wave as good as a 2x4.

    If for whatever reason that you think your schooner is up to the task, watch the video closely, then ask yourself, "can I do that?" If you think yes, then by all means tear you a piece off, and make a video to document. And please make sure your hospital insurance is current.

    To review the highlights of a demo ride:
    1. 3 second holeshot, full fuel, two people, dead stop to on plane before you hit "one thousand three"... No high bow rise, doesn't block you vision, able to maintain control and make any adjustment you wish at any time.
    2. On plane, 16 mph. Not many can stay on plane under 22 mph, AND, at 16 mph, do tight turns, dougnuts, left, right, whatever you like, never blow out, never sets itself back down.
    3. The 60 mph U turn...is done withing two boat lengths. No slide, jump, hop, just turn and go right back into your wake. Hold on...
    4. WFO wrist to wrist turns, full power, full trim, let it eat..then snap left and right turns at will. never touch the trim, never back off the throttle.
    5. Breach stop...full speed to zero in forty feet. From WFO, cut the throttle, and turn (left to prevent passenger from being launched out) to cut the water in half, stopping the hull instantly. Do NOT be the first knucklehead in your Brand X to attempt this. PLEASE...This is for information and entertainment ONLY, it is not instructions, encouragement, or attempting to dare someone into attempting these maneuvers. I will NOT take any responsibility if you're stupid enough to attempt this at home.

    ChampioN's in bad weather competition:

    Ok, gotta tell this one, probably heard it before....but if I don't my feeble brain will forget.

    1996, fishing a red man regional on Dardenelle in Arkansas. 2nd week in november.
    I'm running the fastest champ I ever had, 202 all klegecell layup, 910 lbs. XB 250 that twisted a 27 tempest 6,100 rpms.

    First day was epic, 18ish lbs, second place was 15. problem was about half the field could see exactly where I was. No doubt what the plan was the next day....

    Front was starting to blow in (of course) when we met our second day observers, nice enough older gentleman, I told him it was probably going to be nasty, to be sure and bring a lot of clothes and be prepared. Ok son, will do.

    Picked him up at the dock the next morning, 30 degrees, 30 mph wind, sleet blowing sideways. Perfect day. He's got on a big snowmobile suit, helmet, and lifeline vest. Gloves, the whole deal. Perfect. When we're sitting waiting to go (number 27 urgh) I asked him if it was any problem if I ran hard to my fish, 45 miles up the river. "You go ahead and do what you need to do, I'll be fine" Sounded like permission to me...

    We took off into the wind, and long story short, never took the foot off the throttle, just a little trim adjustments, and passed every single boat in front of us. Jumped up and started fishing, my new best friend just sat in the seat, helmet still on, doesn't move. I catch my five pretty quick, and took a breath...mister you ok??? He sloooowly took off the helmet, rubbed his bald head..."just answer me one thing" Sure? "do you ALWAYS drive that boat like that?" Yep, always. "Well, ok then, I feel better then"

    He was a baptist minister from Oklahoma, fastest boat he'd ever been in was a tracker with a 60 on it, and he had no clue what "fast" was, and obviously I couldn't hear him screaming for his maker under that helmet....he was all excited about the sermon he was going to write about this adventure. Sure glad I could help with your work..

    Pat Goff
    Last edited by Gunnar; 10-09-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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  6. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Fastest Champion

    Fastest champs I've witnessed:
    85 201- V-8 Evinrude high nineties. Talk about a gas sucking hog, 38 gph at WFO
    221-twin 2.5 200's- low nineties, drove that boat, it was the easiest 90 I've ever done.
    221-twin 225 super mags (pro max) orange boat shown at classic, was supposed to co-pilot that rig on the mississippi river challenge, Porthouse sold it before we could do it. Probably a 100 mph boat, but never got it broke in to try.
    Bill Pace's 168 w/240 Bridgeport, never put a radar gun on it, but probably low 90's.
    201 Mirage, 260 Offshore, 90 on a Nordskog speedo. That was fun.
    * Example of a Mirage* - (Added by Gunnar)


    I've never had one personally that broke 90, plenty of mid eighties.
    The fastest champ I've witnessed was a mid-eighties 201 Don Hancock had with a V-8 Evinrude Formula I motor. Mid nineties.
    The 221 w/twin 225 promax's was pretty close though.
    And the one I'm building now might scare that number...if I put the N2O bottle on it.
    My 168 is 150 rated, so that's what's on it (really, it's a 150) ...really.
    Cowling says 150, serial # says 150. Just don't pay attention to that "32" stamped on the prop, it's a missprint.

    It doesn't have to be a Mercury, Yamaha runs pretty good too. On the newer boats, the Yamaha will out do the merc, it's mostly the lower unit design and the low end torque that does it. Speed is simply a division of money invested, how fast do you want to go?

    Speed is an equation of weight, horsepower, and hull design. While the Champ is a good running boat, it by no means can stay with a really fast boat.
    203 Champ with a 300 Yamaha will run low/mid eighties, properly setup and a good driver.
    XB2002 Allison with a 280 offshore is a 110 mph rig. Which will make it the fastest bass boat.
    Very few people here are capable of piloting a boat that fast, but it's a nice topic to argue over.
    And the bullet, stroker, norris craft and others will come on here shortly, but they will fall somewhere between the two.
    Statements like "Any Allison" will get you in deep trouble there ace. Bullets are pretty quick boats, but compared to a comp allison, they won't take the flag.

    You might want to do a little research on that Bullet....It was going to be run in an attempt to break the bassboat speed record currently held by an Allison.... If I remember correctly, it has been in the upper 1teens...

    And that justifies "ANY Allison?" Careful with words pards, they'll come back and gag you.
    ANY Comp Allison with a decent running 300 drag on it is more than capable of 120+ in the 1/4 mile.
    My ragged out XB 2002 with a 280 ran 113 light, and it wasn't any tricked up hull, just the way they came out.
    Don't take it personal, but it's just the way things are, you can go back to beating up on Skeeters again.

    Pat, what about a 'modern day' bass boat ? Stock !!!

    Dunno..
    Haven't rigged a new champ in almost two years. Don't have a clue what the new hulls will run, Todd will.
    Now I've heard of some faster boats, David..(can't remember last name) who originally was with Penick marine (now anchor) in S.A. then worked for Champ, then Gambler had a old 168 Sprint (ski boat) that he'd done a ton of work on, it was low 90's before he put the NO2 on it, never rode in it after the nitrous, but it should have run a ton.
    I was told they had a couple of tweaked on V-8's that would run a 100, but I personally never witnessed it, but they should have.
    Anyway, the bottom line, in all my fishing and tournament experience, only twice did I actually get passed. Once in the river on Amistad by an Allison, and once on the Tombigbe river in Alabama by a bullet, and I passed him right back after the first bend in the river. It ain't about who can run in flat water, it's about maintaining control in all conditions, at all speeds, and how many flat, calm, straight lines to we really get in a years fishing? Not many around here.
    I always let some bullet/triton/skeeter guy get all worked up about how fast his sled will run, and how important it was to beat everyone else, blah blah blah, and ask him if he'd like to lock up on a champ and show everyone who's boss? Of course they jump at the chance "anytime anywhere" is the typical answer, and of course I get to name the course. Whadda ya mean "turn"??? You didn't say nuthin about no damn turns. It's too rough to run. You all know the drill.

    I've put a few numbskulls in the trees.

    Standing around at the draw at a tournament in the early 90's...some dude was just bragging on his champ "90 +"...blah blah blah... Dang dude that's a awesome running boat, what is it?

    Special built, with kevlar and boron (exact phrase) with a merc racing engine...it was a factory demo boat, picked it up at Mt. Home.

    Wow, cool, who's boat was it? I know a few of the factory guys....

    It was Pat Goff's boat!

    Well, I'm sure there's more in it than that, he's clueless....enjoy your ride pards.

    Pat Goff

    Out of all the Champs you ran over the years what was your favorite and why? If ya had to pick just one to fish out of. Question posted by MMosher 1/22/11

    Worst I ever had was still great....
    The BEST? That is really easy....
    Best ever was my '97 202 built to demo at the classic, all klegecell, 900 lbs w/250 XB. I've had some bad dogs in the pen, but that one was the nastiest.
    The next most fun was my '90 184 SCR w/stage II ProV yamaha on it. Sneaky boat that one was for sure.

    The 168 is a great hull to screw around in, but not much of a hard core tournament rig.

    Pat Goff

    How fast was that 202?

    Mid 80's...
    It was rare that anyone *ever* saw that boat completely lined out, I always would have just enough to ease past someone without them thinking anything but that's a decent running champ.
    Now, if you took a demo ride that year at the classic, I was letting it go crazy.

    Pat Goff

    Two degrees from center
    of nowhere.
    Smithwick TX.
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  7. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Champ's in shallow water?

    If you know how to roll the boat out to get on plane, you can get it out of some really shallow stuff, softer the bottom the better.

    I could get my 203 out of a foot of muck bottom without any trouble. To just point it straight and go, it won't. Get your partner to sit on the front deck, turn it hard RIGHT trim up about half way and hammer it. As the boat starts to move in it's spin, it pushes a wall of water in front of it, halfway through the spin, just straighten out and roll on top of the wave you just made, and take off. You'll actually have the water scraped dry on the inside of your circle. Cool deal if you've never seen it done before. It takes a little practice, but it's not too difficult.
    If I can get it moving, I can get it up and running. The quicker I can get it spinning, the larger the bubble of water I'll create, the trick of course is timing your turn to roll up on the bubble.
    You can't be shy, trying to baby it up will only set you back down, this time covered in poot mud.

    This is a standard manuver on the coast, getting your sled up and gone in less than shin deep water. Or ankle deep if you're really setup right.
    You'll learn your trim angle and throttle, remember water won't compress, so your boat will float shallower in skinny water than deep.

    Ok, let's try to be clear.
    This is for shallow, mud bottoms. NOT shallow rock bottoms. I do not wish to be responsible for someone tearing up their equipment and blaming me....
    This works best with two people in the boat. Have your partner sit on the front deck AND HOLD ON!!! This levels out the boat, so the back sits higher in the water. This is important.
    You want to turn the wheel full lock to the right. Also important, because you want the down stroke of the prop on the inside of your circle. Also, since you're on the right side of the boat, it's going to lean that way some anyway.
    What we are going to attempt to do, is get the boat spinning on its nose. If we can sweep the back of the boat around in a circle, we'll push up a bubble of water in front of the hull. Of course we're full lock tilt, and because the motor is now at an angle, it takes much less water than if it was sitting straight up and down.

    So, while we're spinning around pushing up our bubble, we then yank the wheel to the left, straightening out our spin, and trying to get on top of the wave we've been pushing in the spin. Done properly it's a 180 degree spin, up and gone.
    Because of the superior turning ability of the champ hull, and the fact it doesn't have transom corners to impede water flow to the motor, that is a special trick that is very difficult to do in competitive hulls. If you try this move with most bass boats, you just blow out the prop and sit right back down in the muck.

    Oh, did I tell you to make sure to have your partner hold on? He'll think he's on a "E" ticket ride.
    That's about as clear as I can make it. It will take a few practice runs to get it, but it's one of those things that you hope you never need, but nice to have when you do need it.
    I had a guy roll a ranger right in front of me after I gave him a demo ride.
    He kept insisting he could do everything in his lemming wagon that I was showing him in the champ. I told him no he can't, and do not attempt it.

    Belligerent old fart tried it anyway. Bow hooked that thing first attempt at a U turn and over she went. Quick too. Thankfully it slung him away from the boat and he survived with out physical damage to himself.

    He ended up buying a champ, made a point to find me at the Ft Worth boat show and tell me all about it. When I saw him coming to me, I thought he was serving papers...

    Champ's in Salt Water

    EEEEEK....
    If you're planning on dunking your non bass n bay in the brine...
    First I'd HIGHLY suggest you do NOT do it. Your trailer will be cancer in six months. That's just the start, then all your bilge wiring will be a gonner, then all your switches behind the panel, then your carpet will vanish before your eyes...that boat simply isn't made or rigged for saltwater use.

    However if you decide I'm clueless and full of junk...then please heed:
    Every single solitary wire connection should be sealed with liquid tape.
    Get some LPS 4 and soak everything (especially hubs and springs) down thoroughly on your trailer, corrosion X the back of your switch panels, and scotch guard your carpet. Then go ahead and post it for sale, it'll be a money pit for ever more afterwards.

    I can't tell you how many guys rolled into the shop wanting to trade in a cancer case "only dunked in the brine one time" ....trailers were shot, wiring was gone, just a total mess.

    There's a reason saltwater boats are made the way they are, and it takes way more time to properly rig a boat that's going in the ocean, you can't just slam in standard wiring connectors and wave goodbye...

    U.S. Open Lake Mead Memories

    First year...I was guiding on Toledo Bend, and went with a couple of the local guys. Tommy Martin had sat down with me and went over a map on areas to look at, and basically what to expect. Not really "X" fish here, but general acres to scout out. So, with that limited knowledge went out and started putting together what I thought was a decent game plan.

    Now, if you ever want to pick up a few bucks, start flipping coins with me, I'll lose 20 in a row. (details explained)

    So, the partner pairing before the first day, I'm a Texas kid, had NO idea what sort of jerks could come out of So Cal. Unknowing to me, I drew the king of SoCal jerks, Don Doty. We met, he immediately bows up on me, and explains that he's winning this tournament, and by god isn't going to let me get in his way. Nice start, we're still flipping for it. I lose (of course) so we gotta go in his tub. He tells me he's got a secret lure, and don't bother asking what, or wanting to borrow. Fine dude, whatever..

    I show up first morning, he's already launched and waiting, I pile my crap in, and off we go...weeeeeee.
    He pulls up on a bluff bank, and his "secret" lure is a heddon crazy crawler. And he immediately tries his best to block out my casts. I have a spook tied on, and after he casts and then immediately turns the boat to block me, I whacked him hard in the back of the head. We have it out right then, dude you can either let me up on the deck, or let me cast, or I can continue to bloody your melon, whichever works fine for me. He settled down a little, and gave me some room. I catch one...and another one...and another one...spook 3, crawler 0. We got to the end of the cut, and I caught another one on the other side of the bluff, then a pretty nice 3 pounder to get my five. He's still zero. Cuss? Oh yeah. We move to another bluff, he catches a few squirts, I catch a four pounder. Cull one. Now it's panic time for him, apparently he's not ready. It hits 11:00, and your time's up doty, we're going to my stuff. We scraped about that for another hour, how can you pull me off my stuff, blah blah blah blah blah...Finally at noon we run up to my muddy water, and I catch another couple, he begged a jig off me, and caught two. Time to come in. We weigh in, he's loud to anyone who'll hear what a junk partner he drew, how I lucked into my fish, what an exceptional angler he is..blah blah blah blah.

    He throws me the keys to his suburban and tells me to back his trailer in. Fine dude, whatever. The hike up the mountain is quite a walk, I get his stupid vehicle, and while waiting in line, see him milling around the marina, he's got his old lady in the boat and the ESPN cameras are shooting them putting around in his lemming sled. I back down to the water, and noticed...his mercury troll motor is still down, he's been idling around with it down the whole time. I had plenty of time to get out and wave him off, I just forgot to do so. He ran that tub up on the trailer and train wrecked that troll motor. Oh...gee...darn...what bad luck.

    Ok, continued story...skip to the last day.
    Jimmy Houston was the weighmaster/mc/whatever. He's trying his best to be funny, not easy when it's 105 degrees, but anyway.

    Last guy in line was a little black man, had a old ranger hat and one scroungy fish in his bag.
    JH: And from Jackson Mississippi, here's Cletus Jackson. Cletus, tell us how you decided to come fish the US Open?
    CJ: Wells, my old lady was reading my field and stream, and she read about this here fishing tournament, "Cletus, you sho is good at catching them fish, you go out there to las vegas and win us $50,000. I decided to give it a try.
    JH: Well that's great Cletus, tell us about your day:

    CJ: Well...oks, I fished with this crazy MF from Texas, we wents a hunnerd miles an hour, a hunnerd miles up the lake. We pulled into his first fishing spot, and I asks him what's we gonna fish with here? He told me a "Zaro Spooks" Well now I didn't know what to think about this spooks stuff, but I seen him catches a couple fishes on it, and decided it was probably a good idea.
    JH: That's great, how about the rest of your day?
    CJ: Wellsir, we fishes there a little while and then we wents a hunnerd miles an hour another fifty miles up the lake, and we pulls into his next fishing spot. Whats we gonna fish with here? "Black Jig" Uh huh, right..wells, he catches him another couple fishes on that black jig thing and thinks well, maybe he's ok..

    And all I knows is, I sho is glad all you white MF's got your names on your redneck looking shirts, or I couldn't tell you aparts...

    He was a stand up comedian from the strip, it was hilarious, all the Texas/Louisiana guys were rolling on the ground laughing their heads off, the California/Arizona guys were sorta stunned, not sure what to do.
    Pat Goff
    Last edited by Gunnar; 09-17-2012 at 10:36 AM.
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    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

  8. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #7

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Rolling a Champ thru Cruiser wakes

    It's another one of those things that's way way way easier to show than to describe.
    First, it's a good amount of practice, because there's a limit on how big the wake can be before no amount of driving will prevent you from launching.

    Basically when I run up on one, just as I approach the first one I kinda turn away a bit from it, then roll the boat back on it, so I'm more or less back straight into it, then rock the hull away, then back into the next, etc. Done properly I can run through some pretty nasty wakes, never touch the trim or throttle, and you've hardly felt it.

    But, I did crunch a few learning. It's all timing and feel. If it's such a big boat it creates the big roller wakes behind it, then no, you're gonna have to slow down.
    Part of the old demo ride was to do doughnuts in the water, throw up the nastiest wake you could (assuming the lake was flat) and then run through it. It always made me grin when you'd see the passenger get all tense and brace himself for the impact, then you were through it, and they ALWAYS looked back at what they just ran through. "Do it again" was a most common request. "you can't do what we just did" was also fairly common.
    It absolutely requires 100% of your concentration. Looking at a bikini will quickly cause you to crunch something.

    La la la....look at THAT! Splat!

    When it gets that nasty, all the ranger guys are either on the bank or just plodding along, it's not worth the effort to explain, they wouldn't get it anyway.

    To tell the truth, in 4 foot waves, I'd give you a better ride in my 168 than a 223 would. Blasphemy I know, but we'd be dancing across them like a water bug, the big tuna rig would do nothing but grunt and bash.

    Which is unfortunately the way things are today, everyone wants a big beast hull to just go crush water in, because nobody wants to learn how to drive. In my short and painful nitro selling days, we took out their "queen of the fleet" at the time the 929 on a busy day on lake Travis. You couldn't do anything in that hull but just point and bash. "Doesn't this boat ride great"? Err, no it sucks, you can't drive it. "what the heck are you talking about"?? Forget it you wouldn't understand...

    That's what seperates the old boats from the newer hulls, the new ones can't do the slow speed maneuvering nearly as well, and you just become another point and basher. If that's all you know, then so be it, it still rides better than anything else you've been in, but once you ever learn to make it go like it can...you'll get it too.

    Pretty sure I already have given everyone the golden ticket....
    Don't let the wave take a straight shot at you. EVER.
    Pay attention to the next one coming, and set up for it.
    Maintain speed and trim angle that keeps you in control, so you can react instantly.
    Running smooth is fast, rodeo clowning is slow.

    We're all born ignorant. Some choose to stay there, some choose to enlighten.

    Nothing we've ever done in the boats was "crazy" it's just basic boat handling, what enables all this to happen is the confidence that the boat will be able to perform whatever maneuver you demand out of it. That's exactly my definition of "performance"...the ability to maintain control in all conditions at all speeds. As much as I'd like to take everyone to the lake for training, that's not possible, but my "training" came from a few minutes with some sure enough boat pilots, they showed me what is possible, I just went out and proved it to myself.

    Have the confidence your boat will hang with you, take one asprin at a time and learn to drive. It's not magic, it's just cause and effects, learn those and you'll be on your way.

    Oh boy you should hear the bug boat guys just going fargin crazy. whoooiee we can blow a donught at 40. 'yaaaaf'' 'in hooo! If them bug boat could do it at 60+ then they could talk. I know the dude that taught the bug boys how to do that and I still cuss his a$$ out about it. Not naming anybody here...

    You won't but I will....
    When Skeeter hired Don Hancock, that was part of the deal, he teaches the demo ride to the capability, and they'll build a boat that will turn.

    They are pretty sneaky with their ride, they know just where you can take it, and where you better not. You can steer out of a bow hook at 40, but not at 60, which is just one of the quirks of those boats. Believe me, I've run them just as hard as they can go, they were romancing me hard to leave champ and join up, but I just couldn't run one. Not then, not now. They've never been able to duplicate the demo ride, and now less than a few years ago. One good chine hook on a wake will show some real flaws in design.

    And now after their beating they took in court in Louisiana, they are building slugs.

    When it gets that nasty, all the ranger guys are either on the bank or just plodding along, it's not worth the effort to explain, they wouldn't get it anyway.

    Pat Goff

    So you own an old Boat:

    So you own a 90's, 80's, early century something. If you thought life was easy, and surprised to hear stuff actually wears out, we're going to start this here.

    Silicone sealant wears out. Really. If you own a 20 year old hull and think that silicone seal should last forever, you're mistaken. If you haven't pulled it all apart and resealed it, your clock is ticking. Get it done. Don't ask the silly question "do you think I should"? YES I would pull mine apart every five years to be sure.

    Hoses, fittings, pumps, all get brittle with age. If they haven't failed yet, they will. There should never be an unsealed hole on your boat. Screws, fittings, ladders, whatever should never be screwed into the hull without being sealed. I like to pull the screw out, fill hole with marine tex and reseat it. That's permanent. Others like silicone, so your choice is yours, but anything is better than ignoring it.

    If you've got a fine vintage hull, treat it like you would a classic car and everyone will live longer and be happier.
    There is NO automotive paint you can use on your boat. NONE. Don't fall for it, don't sucker up, at best it'll last a year before it flakes off. Nasty stuff.

    Wiring is a major source of pain. Do NOT just start splicing and twisting wire nuts. DO seal your connections, and at worst use dielectric grease on all your connections. Anything that goes in the bilge should be dual walled heat shrunk or sealed with liquid tape or equivalent.

    Spray your carpet down once a year with scotch guard, it'll last a lot longer.

    Hard wire your troll motor to the back of your panel.

    Waxed boats are happy boats. I like protec, you might find something better. If it's fading or getting cloudy in the clear, it won't fix itself, time for a compound and seal job. Yep takes all day. Yep, it's a sweaty painful job. Yep it's worth it.

    Think really hard before you run that screw into the gelcoat. Really? Gotta be THERE? Are you SURE?

    NEVER EVER EVER put grease on a steering cable. If you or someone else already has, get it off tomorrow. Penetrating oil, white lithium, silicone, NEVER grease.

    ALWAYS grease your prop shaft, tilt tube, steering tube, they need it several times a year.

    Pat Goff

    Two degrees from center
    of nowhere.
    Smithwick TX.
    Last edited by Gunnar; 08-04-2014 at 10:53 AM.
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    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

  9. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Thoughts about the new Champ's (Vs Mt. Home Originals)

    Factual Edit: Genmar Holdings Inc. purchased the assets of Champion Boats Inc. and moved them (equipment used in the manufacturing of bass and bay boats) from Mountain Home, Ark., to become part of Genmar's bass boat group in Murfreesboro, TN in March 2002. Genmar bought Champion's assets at auction for $2 million.The trade names Champion and Back Country Boats were included in the acquisition.

    Factual Edit: June 1, 2009 - Genmar Holdings, Inc. (Genmar) announced that it has filed for Chapter 11 reorganization protection in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court.

    Factual Edit: January 8, 2010 - California-based Platinum Equity has purchased "essentially all the assets" of Genmar Holdings for $70 million. Platinum purchased a total of 11 brands, including Ranger, Stratos, Champion, Wellcraft, Four Winns, Larson, Glastron and others.

    Factual Edit: Genmar ceases to exist 1/20/2010. Jan. 20 is marked as the closing date for the Genmar bankruptcy sale. Genmar Holdings, Inc. is officially dissolved.

    Factual Edit: May 26, 2010 - Platinum Eqiuty announced that 3 models of boats will be marketed as "Champion Elite series by Stratos." The models are the 210, 202, and 183. Same molds, hulls and striping, along with a Stratos sticker on the side. The new Stratos Champion Elite Series boats to be built in Flippin, Ark. with production to start in July 2010. Warranties of existing Champion boats in dealer inventories to be honored.

    With all due respect...I've held my opinion to myself longer than I thought I could.
    To compare new/old is a difficult task. There are many things about the new (genmar) boats that are indeed superior to the "old" champs, and there are some things that to somes opinion are inferior.

    As far as construction to compare a new boat to a ten year old boat is unfair, as the advances in chemisty and materials are superior to what was available ten years ago. In the mid nineties, OSHA and the EPA clamped down hard on boat builders for reducing VOC's (volatile organic compounds) and it was quite a struggle to find gel coats and resins that would perform as well as the styrene based chemistry that was the industry standard for years. The composites are easier to use, VOC gelcoats are far superior, and laminates are better than ever.

    The champ standard of ride, handling and performance has been dictated by the market, and the market has spoken. Big, wide, easy to drive boats have driven the market, and like any successful business, you listen to your customers and build them what they ask for. Easy to drive, ride nice in slop, and don't stain your shorts are what they wanted to build, and they have succeeded. Do the new boats ride, and handle as well as the old? For 99.9% of the customers, the answer is clearly "yes" In the hands of a very good driver that can push the hull to it's limits? "no" But, you go out of business satisfying that 1%, so they build what sells.
    As I've commented in the past, the only thing holding them back from being the leader is themselves. Marketing decisions that make you scratch your head, but they are what they are.
    Without knowing it...you guys just explained the difference between new and old perfectly.
    Old days was form follows function.

    New days is the reverse.
    We fixate on things like a storage box, wish it were larger, and they listen. Oops, to make that box larger we gotta move stuff around, like a gas tank. Ok, well, the boat doesn't run as well with the tank moved forward, but more people buy the boat because of the storage box. Gradually things move away from performance oriented to "stuff"oriented.
    You can see the steady progression from function to form, it doesn't happen all at once, but inches turn to miles.

    When you begin to understand the industry, you'll begin to understand the *whys*
    There are dang few people out there who really know the first thing about designing a hull, what makes it work, and how to tweak it into a true final product.

    First thing, John Storie wasn't one of them.
    The guys who are doing the prototype and design all are notorios cusses, who believe what they believe and stick to their guns. Some are sorta famous, like Allison, who believe in what they are doing, and if you want one, fine, if not, that's fine also, but won't change what they're doing.

    Rick Pierce at Bass cat is more of the tinker until it's right school, which is why they don't come out with new boats very often, they're tested for years before they get released.
    Genmar's lead guy is Alan Stinson, who's history began with the Skeeter starfire, then he started Nitro, then jumped to stratos, and is now working on the latest champ hulls. His ideas are what he believes a boat *should* do, take it or leave it. His managers have dictated they want a boat to do this, and this is what the end result is.

    In my opinion (yours might vary) the "day the music died" was when Dave Schlick left champ, he was the designer of the 202, 191, 186, he was half way into the 203 when he hit the road, and though it's a very good running boat, it's by no means a 202 in handling or ride.
    Boats afterwards were done by committee, with a lot of people stirring the pot, so that's why you get a mixture of everything you've seen.

    Out of curiosity, what ever happened with Dave?

    Last I heard. He was in St. Louis, maybe running a biker gang, not sure.
    If you ever met him you'd understand.

    The current boats are easier to drive, and ONLY when they are stressed to their maximum potential would anyone be able to notice a difference. This does sell more boats, no doubt. When you can get an ex-sled owner (Ranger) into the boat and it handles, rides, drives, and performs miles ahead of what he's in, then its mission accomplished.

    It's a funny world we live in today, decisions are made for reasons we cannot always understand. The past of aggressively hunting down anyone to give a demo ride has had to been curbed somewhat, not because of desire, but fear of litigation. It's a sad world when that sort of thing happens, but happen it does and did. I had an idiot JUMP out of my boat during a demo ride, and after two years of litigation, it was settled. It's a dang shame lawyers have to run this country, but it's a fact.

    I will predict a surge of champ activity **IF** new management does indeed try to get out of the Stratos shadow and attempt to regain their customer base again. Like Jerry stated, there have been many ex owners who've wandered to other boats and most certainly many are disappointed. Not all, but a lot.

    Guess who changed my lower unit oil last week...&gt; (Posted 4/13/09 by mixermarkb)

    None other than Dave Shlick!
    He is now working at Theodosia Marnia boat sales and service, on Bull Shoals lake in southern Mo! Nice guy, we chating a little while about the design of my 203 and the 202 I used to own, and when the weather gets a little better, we are gonna play with setup on my 203 and maybe try out a couple of Fury props-

    So, guys, he isn't working for a boat company, tho he did mention his wife works for bass cat! Can't wait to get a driving lesson or 3, and Pat, he said to tell ya hello!

    Pat's Response:
    That's great to hear he's doing ok. Be sure and tell him "howdy" from me when you run into him again. Class guy. (he hides it well though)

    Somehow...I don't see Dave having the patience to sit in front of a monitor very long. His patience for ignorance is legendary short. Erg, farking idiot, get outta my face. I can just see him suffering a lemming.

    Watch Dave or Bill take a prototype plug, run it, take it in and know exactly where to grind down, add bondo here, change an angle there, and make it work. There was so incredibly amount of time involved in building a hull that did what they did, amazing.

    Those boats didn't just appear, they were the result of thousands of hours of tweaking by true masters of the craft. You can tell the difference between a hull that was "finished" and one that was "close". Most boat companies built close, but not finished. Compared to Dave, or Kelly Powers, or Bill Pace, I'd be "dopey" in that crowd.
    Pat Goff
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  10. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)


    Following Narrative added by Mark Burris:
    Quote, originally posted by mixermarkb
    Once upon a time...
    A few guys decided to start building boats. They had a novel idea. Instead of putting the emphasis on smoke, mirrors, marketing and bull$@&!!, they put their effort into designing a product that performed. A boat hull that out turned, out rode, and was safer, and even faster than most of it's peers. They dressed their hull with fit and finish details that set the standard in the industry, and topped it off with deeper, glossier, smoother gelcoat than any other bass boat of the day. This boat was a champion.
    Then, these same guys decided to let the product speak for itself. Instead of giving away free boats to prostaff, and putting glossy ads in every bass fishing publication they could find, they taught their pros how to make their boat do turns a jet ski would envy. They sold their product by putting butts in seats. "Sell a test drive, and you have sold a boat" was the plan.

    It worked.

    They created a loyal, some would even say rabid, following. This following became a family. They celebrated this family with a homecoming event for their kids every fall, drawing hundreds of boats back to Mecca, Northern Arkansas.

    Time marches on, people move in and out, some skilled in business, and honest, and others who made poor choices. Those poor choices came home to roost, and soon the family is hurt, wondering what will become of their Champion.

    The design lineage and BS free philosophy are too good to let go though, and some new family members lift the Champ from a near knockout blow. It is a long fight, going many rounds, and the Volunteer State boys fought it well and hard, working with the goal of bringing the brusied, but still standing Champ back to it's former glory.

    Greed takes it's toll on our nation's economy, and the Volunteers have the rug pulled out from under them. The Champ goes down for the count.

    The legacy is plundered, and the former Champ, now a redheaded step child, is reduced to simply a donor in the gene pool of boat designs. Can't beat em? Steal what brought The Champ to the big dance.

    The no BS, put butts in the seat, build a better product and let it sell itself dream is gone.

    Thank you to John Storie, Bill Pace, Bruce Benton, Dave Shlick, Kelly Power, Don Wood, Stephanie Dinkins, and all the other Mountian Home and Murfreesboro folks who sweat, itched, bled, and worked their butts off to make a living and build something more than just a boat. You made a Champion.
    Mark Burris

    Breach Stop

    Breach stop really should be taught. Not told about. And....it's really hard on your boat, seriously, it'll sling batteries around, knock stuff loose, and generally cause mayhem.
    But...then again, if someone says their XXX will do anything your boat will do, it's a nice card to pull and say "do this". They'll shut up quick.

    It's impressive enough to just watch, the boat disappears in a solid wall of water, and presto! It’s sitting there bobbing in its wake.

    I don't mind driving, but being a passenger it still scares the snot out of me. I'm not the best passenger anyway, I've had a few tyros do some really dumb stuff with me. But...I'll still do it to help a guy learn how to drive.
    Ok, ok, call me insane.

    ***For Information Purposes Only***

    I do not in any way say this to encourage said action, only because someone asked how.

    First, your passenger (never ever ever try this with three people in the boat) needs to be thoroughly warned about what is about to happen to them. Scared is good.
    Take your boat to full power, full trim. Pay attention you don't have any cruiser wakes coming from the side, it'll make it way more weird.

    Chop the power, when the front drops, turn the wheel hard left. Properly done, you'll swap ends, makes a sound like shredding cardboard. You'll be sitting facing the way you just came, with a shower of water all the way around you.
    If you try the turn before the front drops, you'll do a spin out, which won't hurt the boat, will scare you out of ever wanting to do it again.

    Be sure and have something for your left had to hold onto, and tight. Trying to just hold the wheel can eject you right over the side. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do a left turn with a passenger in the boat, if he lets go, he'll go into you and not over the side.
    That's it.

    Aren’t Skeeters able to do that

    Yeah they can...sort of...

    Boat business can get a little weird, if I lose you all on this, sorry.
    The present Skeeter rep in TX used to be the Champion rep. When he was with champ, he torched skeeters butt, and it was all hand to hand combat, in other words bazillions of demo rides. He is still one of the top three boat drivers I've ever known. He taught me, and more than a few others how exactly to do the ride for maximum effect.

    He got crossways with Porthouse, and bolted to Skeeter. They spent the time and money to develop a boat which would do the same ride, and they did...sort of. In the hands of a very skilled driver, you can make a skeet do the same basic ride, but it's not easy, or would I want to watch a tyro in his boat try and duplicate what I just did to him.

    Trim angles, speed, attack paths, cross wakes, will affect that boat much more than the champ, and you can hook it really fast with no warning. (ask me how I know) In a demo ride situation, being a passenger with a very good driver driving, you'll think it's the same, but it's not.
    But, image is everything, and by gosh if you see it on a video screen, it must be true, right?

    Been slung out more than I like to admit..

    As I described the maneuver earlier, you want the front to drop so the keel is in the water, which will direct the rest of the boat around and through the move.
    If you crank the wheel before the front drops, because the rear of the boat is already turning, when the keel does hit the water, it'll grab and hook. When that happens, the back of the boat will release like cracking a whip, the prop will come out of the water, and you'll become a water spout as the boat spins around the new fulcrum, the front of the boat. You still can't flip a champ doing this, but I can't at all vouch for anything else on the water.
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    #10

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Your true thoughts...on Champ 202/203

    202 is faster, dryer, and handles better/easier than a 203.
    203 has a little more rear storage, and tips a little less at rest.
    Both are very good boats, get whichever you like.
    If you just have the need to pass tritons and skeeters without a lot of effort, then the 202 will do it. 203 is going to be a little more of a struggle.

    Question for the Champ guru's...

    Is this true: 4 blade props work better on some hulls than others. It's the difference in the hull design and how they turn. For example a Champion boat actuality turns or pivots on the engine and not the hull. Thus the 4 blade works better on this hull. Skeeters have turning chines to assist the boat in cornering and therefore don't need a 4 blade "

    One hard and fast rule...there are no hard and fast rules.
    No two hulls, motors, and especially props are identical. You can find a dog tempest, put a good trophy on, and swear the trophy is the deal. And you'd be right based on your experience.
    Until the Tempest arrived, we were pretty well forced to run the Yamaha "M" prop, which is/was a blade slinging monster, I went through four in one year. The trophy came out, and it ran equal to the M prop without slinging blades as easy. The Tempest came and on 95% of the champs it's the deal.

    Now if you run a extra heavy load, maybe under powered a bit and/or run really really rough water consistently, a trophy or equivalent might be a better choice.
    Whew, what I'm *trying* to say, nothing is written in stone, you need to evaluate your own needs and setup your boat based on what you need, and how it's going to be used.
    And whatever brainiac wrote that is on crack.

    Speed on Champ 181 – Handling on a 184...

    Now I'm not sure if they were exceptional boat or exceptional motors, but I've seen some 181's that would absolutely get the deal done.
    I know Troy's was very fast, Todd still talks about that boat. I locked up with one at one of the Fun n Sun tournaments that it was all I could do to get by him in my 202 and that boat ran well over 70. He *might* have been cheating, hard to say.
    I'd like to get my mitts on one with a 2.5 merc or Pro V yamaha to fool with. Nothing more fun than to zip past the big tritons and skeets in a little bitty boat.

    I *never* played fair.

    My mandate the whole time I was with champ "you will NEVER get outrun by a Skeeter" So be it.

    They built me some amazing running boats. And a few duds too....

    Best one ever was a 202 that Porthouse wanted special for the Bassmaster Classic, which they were going to have "on the water" for the first time. Chuck built that boat that weighed just a hair over 900 lbs. Along with a rapair ECU and a few other goodies, that was a fire-breathing beast. And it worked too, we gave hundreds of rides, and the dealers who helped sold over twenty boats on the spot.

    Think of your motor as an air pump with a spark plug attached. The more air you can move through it, the faster it'll run.

    The 184 is probably the best handling bass boat ever built by anyone anytime. If some guy is calling it slippery, he's got some issues. Maybe all he's ever driven was a tournament ski boat, or a tunnel hull, because those are the only two things I know of that handle quicker than a 184.

    ChampioN 180 Hull
    It's a funny hull with funny ways. *IN COMPARISON* to the hulls before and after the 180. Still better than anything else of that vintage, but if you're used to a way a boat is supposed to run and handle, anything less is well...something less.

    Biggest aggravation with the 180? It won't carry a fishing load for diddle. You can throw a 25 M on that boat and with a half tank of fuel and by yourself, it'll rip along at 67 mph. Big time bow lift, you'll think you're king of the pond. Put your buddy and your equipment in it, fill the livewell and it'll do well to hit 60. NO MATTER WHAT.

    184, 186, 181 you can set them up easily to lose only 2-3 mph. I know why it does it, but there's nothing you can change to fix it.

    Other than that, it's a great hull....

    ChamP Vs. Stratos...

    I've sold both. Either one will serve you well, but there are differences.
    The champ will ride better, handle easier, and be a bit drier. Until you get into some really nasty water, it won't be that different, but when you have to slow down in the Strat, you'll still be running hard in the champ.

    As previously mentioned, it's a lot of little things that make up the difference.
    In regards to boat construction, there are many opinions as to what does and does not constitute a good boat.

    The endless choices of what fiberglass material, resins, gel coats is mind numbing.

    Champ Vs. Charger:

    Ok, once again we pull out the same old tired card, "Truth or Fiction?"....
    Charger, Cajun, Ray Craft, others all wanted people to believe that because it looks like a duck, it can swim like a duck.

    It ain't a duck boys...
    *ANY* of you charger guys sniffing around here trying your best to tell a champ guy it's better or even the same need to take the bitter pill of reality. Unless driving in a straight line on the same 2 foot boat wake is all that's needed to be the "same"...

    I've driven enough of them, was romanced hard to run one, and the truth is, they do NOT in any way compare in what most of us are fanatical about, the handling. 60 mph U-turn? Don't even think about it. Just a normal cruise at speed up a winding river channel? I'll be out of sight by the second turn.

    But...build it heavy enough, buy enough fishing magazine ads, and you'll find enough suckers to buy into it.

    Let's take two of the same vintage hulls, and meet at the landing. Twenty minutes should just about do it. Only requirement? Come back here and report on the results.

    Well, my experience was with a "Team Charger" guy in the late 90's who showed up at a demo ride function. Quite brazen about how champ copied charger, there wasn't *anything* we could do that he couldn't out do. A few hours of listening to that chop flapping convinced me the man really needed a full demo ride.

    And I gave him one.

    He then proceeded to jump in his rig and show me it wasn't anything special. About forty seconds later he cork screwed that rig completely under water.

    Game over was what I decided.

    Pat Goff
    Last edited by Gunnar; 09-10-2012 at 09:48 AM.
    <img src=http://i56.tinypic.com/2md1nok.jpg border=0 alt= />
    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

  12. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #11

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Open mold or vacuum?

    Allison builds a nice boat, no doubt. Best? I'd say probably not.

    **IF** you understand materials, resins, and processes, then the leader would certainly be the Cat. If for no other reason than the vacuum process, that no one else in the bass boat business has made the investment into.

    What makes me crazy about forums like this is "mine's the best" which is usually posted up by a faceless name, with no intention of backing up that brainiac statement with a "why"
    My whole boat career has been a history of the "why". If such blather is ever put up by me, I promise I'll be there to back up the talk. Throwing a stink bomb in the room and running is far from a sporting gesture.

    "liner" boats were the idea of Chuck Pierces. Build an inner liner, set it inside the hull and fill the cavity with structure foam, like klegecell. Champ built quite a few liner boats, it was an order option back then, and a lot of the 190/191's were built that way out of general purpose. Easiest way to determine is to "thump" the side of the boat, if it's solid like a brick, it's a liner boat, if it isn't it's not.

    The true klegecell boats are extremely rare, no more than eight or ten total were built, mostly for experimentation, and a couple for reps. Most of the ones they built for me were literally cut in half for inspection purposes.

    Advantages: Really smooth, QUIET ride, felt solid, would out "thump" a ranger.
    Disadvantage: Very difficult to repair. I wouldn't want to take it to anyone with less talent than C&O for a hull repair. Why you don't see them anymore, minor hull damage would result in a totaled boat.

    176 Hull...

    176 is a great hull, very quick with a 150, (really fast with a 200) Gives the most impressive demo ride of any Champ. It seems like more companies need to offer this size of boat to beginning anglers who need to learn how to drive a boat and as a lower price starting point to get in to the sport. But the powers that be have decided it isn't worth their time, and they'll just hand that whole market to Nitro and Skeeter.

    Molds wear out, they need to be replaced fairly often. As far as a 176 mold, doubt anything usable is around, that boat was discontinued when they came out with the 181/171 boats, so it's been ten years or so.
    <img src=http://i56.tinypic.com/2md1nok.jpg border=0 alt= />
    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

  13. Ride & Decide! Gunnar's Avatar
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    #12

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Transducer Install...

    This is the *best* method for installing a transducer I've found.

    Do NOT use quick cure epoxy, or silicone.
    DO use fiberglass resin.

    I take a grinder and polish down a nice smooth spot about 2" then make a small dam around the spot with duct tape. The put a small amount of resin in my little pond, set the transducer in, and tape it down with the duct tape, then add a little more resin. Let it sit overnight.
    Quick cure epoxies will setup so fast it captures air bubbles, which is your enemy, the resin is much thinner and cures slower, which enables the air bubbles to escape. Your signal is much better.

    Set-Up Rules:

    First rule: There are no rules...
    Every boat/motor/prop is different, and all you can do is start at a known good spot, then adjust from there.

    Basic rule of motor height: With a full load, raise motor until you lose A. bow lift B. water pressure C. speed Then back down a notch to get it back.

    Basic rule of props: No two are alike. I've taken ten factory props out of boxes and all ten ran different. When you've learned to accept that rule, you'll begin to understand why each setup is a little different.

    #1 Rule of setups: Always make adjustments with a full fishing load. Full fuel, full livewells, full of tackle, two people. Any adjustments made while boat is light will bite you in the butt when you load it down.

    #2 Always write down your beginning setups, and make notes on all changes. If you don't, you'll adjust yourself right out of a good running boat, and have fits trying to start at zero again.

    #3 Every day is different. Barometer, temperature, humidity all will affect your performance, so try to do all your setups on the same day to achieve your goals.

    What you'll usually find is a series of "small" improvements add up to your
    desired results:

    Jack Plate=2 mph
    Prop=2 mph
    Correct motor height=1
    Diet=2 mph (Diet = Less weight in the forward compartments)

    See where I'm going? rarely is there a magic pill, but the whole bottle....

    For the most part champs are the easiest boats to setup there is, not a brain surgery session at all.

    But, it still makes my butt hurt to see some poor schmoe rolling down the road with a classic that's got some gawd awful 5 blade prop, whale tail, six transducers and three speedo pickups hanging off the back. And he'll be the one that takes the internet loudmouth out some day, who'll be the one that says "champs run like garbage, I know all there is, my bud has one"...

    Tell me that isn't true....

    Aren't those Mt. Home Champs 'Tippy'?
    The "tippy" lie is about as annoying as a CNN story. Sounds good, just isn't true.

    I'll happily trade that tippy nonsense for what it does NOT do:
    Get hung up on a stump. 17 years of fishing some of the knarliest water there is, NOT ONCE did I ever have to start my big motor to slide off a stump.
    You don't have to work your way around stuff because you're quick and nimble on the troll motor, not a dead cow that happens to float.
    I don't have to pull off that windy point because every wave (not that big either) is coming over the bow.
    I'm not sure what you bought your boat for, I got mine to fish in, not take naps.

    We either fish for comfort or for fish. When I reached in my pocket to pay an entry fee I wanted to go wherever I wanted fish the way I wanted to and not sweat getting back in time

    More than a few times I had a huge competitive advantage and never took that for granted. If you want to fish off the dock and accept the limitations that come with it, no beef from me, to each their own.

    Pat Goff
    Two degrees from center
    of nowhere.
    Smithwick TX.
    Last edited by Gunnar; 01-18-2017 at 03:08 PM.
    <img src=http://i56.tinypic.com/2md1nok.jpg border=0 alt= />
    Nothing Rides Like a Champion!

  14. Pat Goff
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    #13
    Sorry, didn't realize I yakked THAT much...
    Pat Goff

    Two degrees from center
    of nowhere.
    Smithwick TX.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    #14

    Re: (pmgoffjr)

    No No No Pat!! By all means, YAKK away!! I, for one, will hinge on every syllable you utter. You and Fred anyway.


    WT \"Bon Temp Roulez\"



  16. Member
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    #15

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)


    great read pat answered a lot of ?'s my first was a 184 175 merc i think i will go buy it back this summer. which brings up a question about it im me when you have time

    thanks for the info on champs

  17. Member
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    #16
    Great read, very interesting. I dont really understand the concept of rolling a champ through cruiser wakes.

    I think he is saying to run the boat almost parallel to the big wakes?

  18. Member
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    #17

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    MORE, MORE !!!!


    Mike and my Champ
    \"The Old Warriors\"



  19. Member
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    #18

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Thanks for sharing all that information Pat. Can you tell me anything regarding the hull design of the 194 Fishunters. I believe they started with a 17 ft'er, then an 18, finally ending with 190/194, correct? Once again, thanks for putting all the information out there.. really, really, good read!!!!




    Modified by Bowhunter at 8:02 PM 2/24/2009
    Bowhunter
    2004 Champion 194 Fishunter Merc 225 EFI, 9.9 Pro Kicker, Lowrance Touch Network.

  20. Member
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    #19

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (Gunnar)

    Thanks Gunnar for putting this together. It's a gem and I'm sure will be referred to many times for newbies to the forum.

    Thanks, Pat for sharing your experiences. I am not going to try the breach, I'm not... no, really...

    I am going to try the shallow water deal... in deeper water first... alot of my shallow water has stumps!

    Thanks for clarifying my suspicion about "driving thru" a chine walk. I was beginning to think it was just me not getting the hang of it after 5 years. I finally started figuring it out for myself the last time I had my 206 out. I'm just starting to learn to keep it under control and get past that magic number of 69 mph. I can get it to 73 now and I think there's a little left. With your tips, I might be able to see the real top end of my rig.

    Thanks!
    Mark

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    #20

    Re: The ChampioN World – According to Pat Goff (bassinengineer)

    I just purchased my first Champion, a 1991 190DC with Yamaha 150. It was well taken care of by the original owner. I have only been fishing in it 2 times so far and have enjoyed it. I wondered what your opinion of this particular boat is? Thanks!

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