MSF test and two day course

[OSUDVM]

I took the MSF safety riding course this weekend in OKC. They had us do a lot of slow moving exercises in addition to the "required safety exercises" which were scored. The scored exercies were used to determine whether you passed or not. We had to do a figure eight in a 15 foot wide marked off rectangle. I found this incredibly difficult to do with only 15 feet to work with. Are you supposed to be able to turn a big Harley in a figure 8 pattern staying within the 15 foot wide space? I would find this very hard to do. I passed 4 of the 5 safety scored exercises but because I dropped the bike in this figure 8 exercise (which by the way was not scored since it is not considered a safety exercise), I failed the test and didn't get my M certificate. I took the course to learn and to get my M certificate. So much for the certificate. I just wish they didn't have a non-scored exercise as part of the scored exercise. I could have "duck walked" the cycle in the figure 8 and still passed this last exercise which included a swerve maneuver. I should have duck walked but was trying to do it correctly and just screwed up and dropped the bike. Has anyone else taken the MSF course to get their M certificate? By the way, I got a 100% on the written portion of the exam. I guess I will have to go take the motorcycle driving exam at the DMV now. Bummer. I was hoping to get two things accomplished at one time with the course. Sorry for the long post.

[GBhoss]

Actually It can be done but only by an experience rider. The exercise should have been demonstrated and practiced if it was part of the final test an d I would argue that point to the training center coordinator (the instructor's boss). The first time I saw this exercise was when we were doing a HOGS (select Harley Riders) vs PIGS (select Police) demonstration ride. During our practice, 4 of the Police bikes went into the box nose-to-tail and did the figure 8 together. Not to be outdone, me and 3 other guys did the smae thing..... nowhere near as pretty but we did make it work but it was VERY hard. During the scored part of the demonstration I got into the box and hit the line with my front tire doing the left hand turn part of the figure 8 and yelled an expletive that most of the 1500 spectators heard and lost 2 points. Funny thing is I turn to the left better than I turn to the right.

The reason that they HAD to fail you was because you dropped the bike. Had you just ran over the line or hit a cone or put your foot down you would have just had points deducted and still passed.

You learned alot more than you think by taking the course and passing the test at the DMV should be WAY easier than the course. Make sure you don't just show-up at the DMV be yourself to take the test unless you put the bike on a trailer. First question we HAD to ask was how did you get here and how did the bike get here. You would be surprised how many tickets were written at the DMV for driving without a proper license.

[n2ratfishin]

When I let my license laps my wife and I both took the Harley Riders Edge Course (rode Buell 500's), I missed a perfect score by riding to fast in a curve. She lost a couple points for riding outside the box in the figure eight. Both of us passed and did not have to take the DMV test.

The advanced courses I've had over the years are only a day. You have to bring your own bike and everyone has a license. You for sure want to put a foot down or go off course in one of those. If you drop the bike it's yours.

My wife has a Buell mirror somewhere where she first dropped one.

[n2ratfishin]

It can be done.

[jiggin]

The DMV test is WAY easier than the MSF course but better prepares you for riding in the real world. I try to take the Experienced Rider Course (ERC) about every 2-3 years just to keep my rider skills sharp and that is a liitle more advanced. Our club was offered the Police riders course this fall which is the top of the line course and extremely difficult, but most found it very helpful. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I missed it due to fishing a bass club tournament. Priorities,lol! Keep the shiny side up and the rubber down. I ride a 2004 BMW R1150RT.

[OSUDVM]

Actually It can be done but only by an experience rider. The exercise should have been demonstrated and practiced if it was part of the final test an d I would argue that point to the training center coordinator (the instructor's boss). The first time I saw this exercise was when we were doing a HOGS (select Harley Riders) vs PIGS (select Police) demonstration ride. During our practice, 4 of the Police bikes went into the box nose-to-tail and did the figure 8 together. Not to be outdone, me and 3 other guys did the smae thing..... nowhere near as pretty but we did make it work but it was VERY hard. During the scored part of the demonstration I got into the box and hit the line with my front tire doing the left hand turn part of the figure 8 and yelled an expletive that most of the 1500 spectators heard and lost 2 points. Funny thing is I turn to the left better than I turn to the right.

The reason that they HAD to fail you was because you dropped the bike. Had you just ran over the line or hit a cone or put your foot down you would have just had points deducted and still passed.

You learned alot more than you think by taking the course and passing the test at the DMV should be WAY easier than the course. Make sure you don't just show-up at the DMV be yourself to take the test unless you put the bike on a trailer. First question we HAD to ask was how did you get here and how did the bike get here. You would be surprised how many tickets were written at the DMV for driving without a proper license.

Well that might be hard for me to do. I do not have a trailer. I only live about one mile from the DMV office. Do you think thye would allow me to just ride it that far? I know you can't judge what they would allow but how inflexible are they usually? If I can't ride one mile to the DMV or they won't drive to my house to give me the test on the roads around me , I might have an Ultra Classic that just sits in the garage. I also do not know anyone who has an M certificate to ride it their for me.

[GBhoss]

It can be done.

If you ever get a chance to see this type of competition in person..... DO IT. I have seen many of them in the last 15 years and I ride with some of the guys that compete. To see in person what can be done on these bikes is really incredible. Take a look at the floorboards on every bike and you will see that they are ground down from scraping the ground in tight turns.

As for just showing up with your bike at the DMV.... I would suggest not doing it. If you get there and they do ask how you got there and you don't have an escort then you will be subject to a ticket and they can't let you leave with the bike without someone else that has a license. You can always just take the MSF class again.

[Skeet'r89]

Well that might be hard for me to do. I do not have a trailer. I also do not know anyone who has an M certificate to ride it their for me.

Go back to the place where you took the MSF course. Ask one of the instructors or someone there if they can help you out. Second, there is no way I would go and try to pass a DMV test on a Ultra. Is there anyway you can retake part of the MSF test for a small fee. You will probably have to do a fig 8 at the DMV. The trick to the fig 8 is to snap you head aroud and look at where you want to go.

[OSUDVM]

Go back to the place where you took the MSF course. Ask one of the instructors or someone there if they can help you out. Second, there is no way I would go and try to pass a DMV test on a Ultra. Is there anyway you can retake part of the MSF test for a small fee. You will probably have to do a fig 8 at the DMV. The trick to the fig 8 is to snap you head aroud and look at where you want to go.

Well I went back today and spent two hours of one on one practice with my rider coach and passed the MSF course with flying colors. The box is 20 feet wide (one of the other coaches had told me 15 feet last weekend) and I still had trouble doing a figure 8 in the box but I did much better. So I took your advice and got more teaching and did not go to the DMV. So I will now get my M certificate so I can get the bike out of the garage for practice. I can tell you that I find that box a bitch to do a figure 8 in and I am very afraid I would drop my big Ultra Classic trying to attempt that skill with it. I have watched the Ride Like a Pro videos 10 times and now I have to just go practice. I know I need to just take the bull by the horns and get with it and not let the bike beat me mentally. That slow stuff is real hard for me and doing tight circles, U turns, figure 8s will take me a while to master. My biggest flaw is not keeping my head up and using head and eyes to point me to where I need to go. Thanks for the great advice.

[GBhoss]

Congrats on passing the course.....

Now its time to practice, practice, practice... Larry is right....the trick to making a sharpe u-turn is snapping your head in the direction of the turn. Go to an empty parking lot and use the parking space lines to practice turning. Start with 4 or 5, whatever is comfortable to do, and you can just enter from one side and stay within the lines and complete the u-turn as soon as you can. Do it over and over and do it both ways so you can practice left and right u-turns. Keep trying to get the turn completed in less space each time. The best you can do is 1 and 1/2 spaces as the turning radius for the Ultra is 15'4" if I remember correctly.

As for dropping the bike..... IT WILL HAPPEN... There are tricks to picking up the bike by yourself and as long as you use your legs and not your back it really isn't that hard. In most cases, someone will see what happened and be glad to help. If you have to do it yourself then snuggle up to the bike with your knees bent on the side the bike fell on. Grab the hand grip with one hand and the saddlebag crash bar with the other and drive it up with your legs. If the bike has fallen on the right side make sure you put the kickstand down before lifting just in case it goes too far over when you lift it. Picking it up once is hard but twice sucks

Just remember one thing------ its takes almost NO SKILL to ride down the interstate at high speeds. All the skills are required for the slow speed stuff.

[OSUDVM]

Congrats on passing the course.....

Now its time to practice, practice, practice... Larry is right....the trick to making a sharpe u-turn is snapping your head in the direction of the turn. Go to an empty parking lot and use the parking space lines to practice turning. Start with 4 or 5, whatever is comfortable to do, and you can just enter from one side and stay within the lines and complete the u-turn as soon as you can. Do it over and over and do it both ways so you can practice left and right u-turns. Keep trying to get the turn completed in less space each time. The best you can do is 1 and 1/2 spaces as the turning radius for the Ultra is 15'4" if I remember correctly.

As for dropping the bike..... IT WILL HAPPEN... There are tricks to picking up the bike by yourself and as long as you use your legs and not your back it really isn't that hard. In most cases, someone will see what happened and be glad to help. If you have to do it yourself then snuggle up to the bike with your knees bent on the side the bike fell on. Grab the hand grip with one hand and the saddlebag crash bar with the other and drive it up with your legs. If the bike has fallen on the right side make sure you put the kickstand down before lifting just in case it goes too far over when you lift it. Picking it up once is hard but twice sucks

Just remember one thing------ its takes almost NO SKILL to ride down the interstate at high speeds. All the skills are required for the slow speed stuff.

You are so right GBhoss. If someone who rides a bike has never done the slow stuff before and then thinks they have control of their bike because they can ride down the highway, they are way off base. I certainly have ridden bikes for years but never did the slow stuff until the MSF course. That stuff is just brutally hard if you have never attempted it before. I thought I handled my 1200 Virago well in years past but never did any slow stuff. I am in awe of those police officers in videos above.

[Skeet'r89]

Glad that you got the MSF cert. and that you can get your M/c permit. It is great to be able to do the tight turns. Take your time, practice in the big parking lots as others have said. Turn your head and LOOK AHEAD of where you want to go.

[OSUDVM]

[QUOTE=Skeet'r89;3020117]Glad that you got the MSF cert. and that you can get your M/c permit. It is great to be able to do the tight turns. Take your time, practice in the big parking lots as others have said. Turn your head and LOOK AHEAD of where you want to go.[/QUOTE

[OSUDVM]

Glad that you got the MSF cert. and that you can get your M/c permit. It is great to be able to do the tight turns. Take your time, practice in the big parking lots as others have said. Turn your head and LOOK AHEAD of where you want to go.

Larry, I hit send too early on my other reply. I understand the concept of head and eyes but can you give me any pointers on turning the handlebars. This might seem really stupid but when I turn my head and eyes I am still tentative on turning the handlebars since I get the feeling that the front is turned too much when it really isn't. This then keeps me from getting the bike turned to the pointwhere I am looking. I know not to look down since that makes things worse. What did you do to convince yourself it is OK to turn the handlebars more, so that you do go to where your head and eyes are looking? Hope this is not a real stupid question. Thanks

[Skeet'r89]

It is hard to explain truthfully. I am not got to sit here and tell you that I can ride like the cops in the video or the Ride Like a Pro vid. Those guys have awesome control of there bikes. I did how ever swing the 250 honda around the box pretty easily. Go get some skate board/soccer cones (4-6 cones) at wally world or a local sporting store. They will give you easily visable targets. Go to the parking lot and set them out using the parking lines as a guideline. Make it big enough for you to occomplish easily. After making some passes move the cones in a couple of feet. After you make a few passes and are comfortable readjust so that you are turning the other direction. This is really hard to explain in written text. Really the best I can say is if you went into a rectangular box as soon as you can turn your head far enough you should be looking at the spot where you intered that box. The bike will follow. I don't think it is about turning the handle bars. If it is then you may be trying to accomplish this manuever with the bike to upright. There should be a little lean to the bike. Just go practice, start big and tighten up. Don't let it bother you if you can't do a full locked handlebar turn, I can't.

[n2ratfishin]

How big a feller are ya?

I'm a big guy and used it to my advantage in those tight turns. After building some confidence I didn't mind throwing her around while shifting weight for counter balance. I never looked as graceful as the video on my Geezer Glide but could get through the course just fine. Don't stall the engine, if you look those guys keep moving and they really don't turn the handle bars lock to lock that much. If you don't ride much your clutch hand will feel like someone beat it with a ruler all day after riding those courses. You do hear lots of floor board grinding where they have the big glides leaning at max angles. One of the frustrating things for me when I moved to HD was the lean angles are not much compared to a sports bike.

Never laid down my Geezer Glide, the times I have laid one down have been at stops or not paying attention in gravel or other slick surfaces. I came REAL CLOSE on the big HD a few times. If I had not been an experienced rider and/or had a guardian angel no doubt I would have gone down. One reason i don't ride in shorts and a t-shirt.

Anyhow I'll never let my license laps again. Not sure how in the world I'd ever run the course on the big trike. Harley has a trike course from what I understand. I'll give it another year or so for Riders Edge to get it down and likely go take it.

Congrats on passing.

[GBhoss]

Larry, I hit send too early on my other reply. I understand the concept of head and eyes but can you give me any pointers on turning the handlebars. This might seem really stupid but when I turn my head and eyes I am still tentative on turning the handlebars since I get the feeling that the front is turned too much when it really isn't. This then keeps me from getting the bike turned to the pointwhere I am looking. I know not to look down since that makes things worse. What did you do to convince yourself it is OK to turn the handlebars more, so that you do go to where your head and eyes are looking? Hope this is not a real stupid question. Thanks

If your handlebars are not turning then you are not turning your head far enough. You really need to SNAP your head around in the direction of the turn almost to the point of seeing the back of your bike. Take another person with you when you practice and have them stand just about where you enter the box. If you cannot see them then you are not turning your head far enough. I have had this with MANY students and they only way I could explain it was to scream their name just as they were making the turn so they would look at me and it worked EVERY time. Definately take the cones because that gives you a point of reference on the 4 corners and the better you get the closer the cones will get..... Hope this helps.

[OSUDVM]

If your handlebars are not turning then you are not turning your head far enough. You really need to SNAP your head around in the direction of the turn almost to the point of seeing the back of your bike. Take another person with you when you practice and have them stand just about where you enter the box. If you cannot see them then you are not turning your head far enough. I have had this with MANY students and they only way I could explain it was to scream their name just as they were making the turn so they would look at me and it worked EVERY time. Definately take the cones because that gives you a point of reference on the 4 corners and the better you get the closer the cones will get..... Hope this helps.

You guys are great. Thanks for the support and super advice. It is 15 degrees here this morning but hopefully by the weekend it will warm up. There is no advice better than the advice which comes from those who have "been there and done that". I will work really hard on the head turn, getting the friction zone and rear brake skill down, and take it slow as you advise. As I said in my very first post when I got the bike, I am really going to listen to those who have the experience. Thanks again for taking your time to do so.

[GBhoss]

Your welcome....

One thing I forgot to mention.... when practicing the slow turns/manuvers you should use the rear brake ONLY. If you hit the front brake too hard while turning, you will change the balance of the bike dramatically and sometimes it will cause you to fall over.

Anytime you have a question just ask....