I can't find my little notebook, does anyone have any guide weights comparing Torzites, SiC black titanium and Alconites? Specifically I'm looking at spinning 25H, 12H, 6M, 5.5L and 5 runners (X5). Thanks Mike
I can't find my little notebook, does anyone have any guide weights comparing Torzites, SiC black titanium and Alconites? Specifically I'm looking at spinning 25H, 12H, 6M, 5.5L and 5 runners (X5). Thanks Mike
Not enough that you would notice in use.
Not true.Originally Posted by Spoonplugger1
I know there's a difference and I have a lot of guide set weights but like I said I can't find my notebook (which has like 15 years of information). Anyway, just trying to decide on whether or not I want to spend the extra $100+ to save a few grams. If it wasn't a C6O2 it'd just be getting Alconites...probably still will. I've got 3 personal rods with Torzites (1 SCV and 2 C602's) and I don't know that they're really worth it. The black titanium aren't much better on cost but if I used those it'd be a completely blacked out build which has some appeal, but then there's the fact that SiC/titanium are heavier than Alconite/titanium (which you can't get anymore) so I wanted to check weight...decisions decisions.
If you're talking you wouldn't notice the difference in the weight of the same guide trains in titanium with Torzite rings and titanium with SIC rings, then I would have to agree. But if you're saying you wouldn't notice the difference between either titanium with Torzite or SIC rings, and SS with Alconite rings, then you couldn't be more wrong.
A 20H with SS frame and Alconite rings weighs 3.971 grams. An entire 20H, 10H, 5.5M, (1) KB 5.5, (7) KT 5's, and an Arowana tip top. 5 ring - 5.0 tube in titanium with SIC rings weighs 4.226 grams. The 20H with SS frame and Alconite ring weighs more on its' own, 3.971 grams, than the entire 20H, 10H, 5.5M reduction train in titanium with SIC rings. 3.454 grams.
You can definitely feel the difference. Guides are leveraged weight. That means they're going to feel heavier at the reel seat. That's not an opinion. That's physics.
Will, I can't help you with weights on titanium with Torzite or titanium with SIC rings on the 25H group the KR concept calls out for, but I do have them in SS with Alconite.
25H, 5.562 grams,
12H, 1.489 grams,
10H, 1.367 grams,
7M, .586 grams,
6M, .532 grams,
6L, .311 grams,
5.5M, .319 grams,
5.5L, .224 grams,
KB 5.5, .211 grams,
KT 5, .128 grams.
Those weights are for SS frames, Alconite rings. I have the weights for some of those guide sizes in titanium with SIC rings, somewhere but have to look through my other notes. I do have weights for KB and KT 4.5's in titanium with Torzite.
4.5 KB, .087 grams.
4.5 KT, .060 grams
In titanium with SIC rings.
5.5 KB, .095 grams. 5 KT, .085 grams.
Sorry I can't help you with some of the reduction guide weights in titanium Torzite or SIC rings. I don't use that guide grouping so never even have the numbers to have jotted them down. I only have the 25H group guides that I have because I was considering them because I wanted to see if they worked better with 10# fluorocarbon line than the 20H grouping. I decided against the 25H grouping because that 25H is a tank of a guide. Close to 1/4 oz just on it's own
Curious which C6O2 blank you're planning on building on with that guide group? 4000 size reel? Also, I notice you're looking at using the high choke guide option, so you might find the weights of the 7M and 6L useful. One of the Fuji articles I read called for 25H, 12H, 7M, 6L for the high choke guide option. I'm wrapping a build on an SB724 X ray using the high choke option but with the 20H guide grouping. I had to play with the spacing a bit to get bullseyes. Some pretty extensive discussion on Rodbuilding.org on the high choke guide option. Just do a search. Most of it is pretty recent.
Will, as a less expensive option in guides with titanium frames, you might want to consider the American Tackle Ti Forged guides. I have a set of those using the 20H KR guide grouping in black titanium with Pentalite rings. And while I wouldn't say they are as nice as the Fuji T2's, they are very nice guides. The black finish is actually black like the old black frame Fuji's. According to Am Tack, it's some kind of special diamond coating or something. It's glossy and looks pretty sharp. I haven't used them yet so I don't know how well it holds up. But I've used some black Am Tack guides on two of my rods and it shows no sign of wear.
The Pentalite rings are about as thin as the SIC rings on the T2s. Maybe even a little more thin. Again, I haven't used them yet, so no idea on how well they stand up. But Am Tack makes quality stuff, so I would have no reason to think they wouldn't hold up great.
Weights for the guides I have on hand
20H, 2.401 grams
10H, .902 grams
7L, .223 grams
6M, .270 grams
5.5M, .229 grams
5.5L, .174 grams
5 TRS, which is the equivalent of a KT .120 grams.
They don't have tip tops for those particular guides, so I went with a CRB LZR tip top with Zirconium ring. It's a stainless steel frame 5 ring, 5.0 tube. It weighs .332 grams. Went with the CRB tip top because Am Tack doesn't offer a titanium tip top.
Anyhow ..... like I said, they're really nice guides, so might be something to consider versus SS with Alconite. If I remember correctly, the Am Tacks were about $40 less than the same set of Fuji T2s.
And this is just me but ..... I have 2 MB 725 C6O2 blanks in different stages of build going right now. One ready to be wrapped, the other still doing some modifications to the XO skeleton casting grip I'll be using for it. Based on how good they feel, no way would I put Alconites on those blanks. That would be like owning a Porsche 911 Turbo S, and never driving it over 25 mph. Just wouldn't be right. lol
Bassbme, thanks...that helps a lot. I know the Alconites are heavier than both the Torzite/titanium and SiCs/titanium but they are WAY cheaper and I don't notice any real performance difference. I have noticed a performance advantage using the 25H, 12H, 6M, 5.5L, 5 runner recipe and bullseyeing the first 5 guides (sort of a half COF). I would previously start with a 20 and use either COF or rapid choke (which I don't like anymore). As a matter of fact I've stripped and re-wrapped some of my older rods and re-done them. I've got a couple Megabass and Steez spinning rods and noticed they just seemed to cast better...they both have Concept guides and start with a 25 so I just tried it with K series and found it to be better than what I was doing. Yes there's a weight trade off with the 25 but outside of just trying to build the lightest possible rod everything else is better (to me anyway).
The C6O2 is a SJ764. It's just a touch lighter power than the MB725 so I thought I'd build one as a spinning rod and one as a casting rod. I get the Porsche analogy, when I got my first C6O2 MB725 someone (I think it was Scott Hovanec) said don't put hubcaps on a Benz. Anyway thanks...I might take a look at the AmTaks.
Will, no problem. Glad it helps. And I totally get what you're saying as far as cost. Heck, a 25H T2, black titanium with SIC ring from Mud Hole is $56.55 on its own. So about the same cost as an entire guide train in SS, Alconite.
As far as seeing any performance difference between SS / Alconite, and titanium / SIC or Torzite goes .... I've yet to build on the same blank with the same guide train with the only real difference weight wise, being different frame materials. I can't imagine you'd notice any difference in casting difference, and difference in sensitivity being objective, would be debatable. The difference I feel between the rods I have with SS / Alconite, and titanium / SIC is in tip weight. I know I can certainly feel the difference. And those rods are more of a joy to fish with versus those with SS frames and Alconite rings.
The 2 MB 725 C6O2 blanks I'm building are both going to be casting rods using NFC XO skeleton casting grips, and virtually the same guide trains. The difference in guide trains being, one is titanium with Torzite rings, and the other is titanium with SIC rings. And a slight difference in running guide size. 4.5's in the Torzites, and 5' in the SICs. I'm using a KW 10, and a KW 5.5 for the reduction train on both rods.
As you know, the difference in cost between Torzite and SIC with titanium frames isn't all that much. And to me, while I didn't expect much of a difference in weight between the two ring materials, the difference in weight between the two is simply not worth even a little extra cost. They say Torzite is the more durable material, but in 4 years of using the T2s, I have yet to have a problem with an SIC ring. I just picked the Torzites because I wanted to use them on at least one of my builds, and I couldn't think of a better candidate than the MB 725 C6O2 blank.
I'll be building a spinning rod for a buddy that I let fish with a spinning rod I built on an RX10 ETEC72M blank that has T2s for the guide train. He loved that rod and wants me to build him a comparable rod, but he's scoffing a bit at how much such a rod would cost, just in materials. I picked up an MB 724 X ray to use for the blank, but he's still hemming and hawing about the cost of titanium guides for it. I just tell him if wants to play, he's gotta pay. My guess is he isn't going to take the leap. With you talking about how you like the 25H group with the high choke guide, I'll suggest that 25H group with the high choke guide option to him.
I'll get everything on it but won't wrap the guides, and I'll let him feel the difference in how the rods feel in hand.
Anyhow ..... I enjoy the discussion.
I assumed all were the same frame as they didn't mention otherwise, also remember the smaller the guide the smaller the difference between them, when we were measuring the Ti micros vs SS micros you had to have at least 20 guides of each to get reliable, repeatable differences.
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