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  1. Member
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    #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Quillback View Post
    Nothing has generated the sizeable debate in the fishing world like FFS has.
    Part of that is social media not being as widespread either.

    I still think mapping / gps might be a bigger deal than FFS. It would be very, very hard to pick between the two if one had to go.
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  2. Member Quillback's Avatar
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    #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjenson View Post
    Part of that is social media not being as widespread either.

    I still think mapping / gps might be a bigger deal than FFS. It would be very, very hard to pick between the two if one had to go.
    I don't see guys at the pro level using only mapping and GPS to win tourneys. I bet if you gave them a choice of giving up mapping GPS or FFS, they'd give up the map/GPS. I really don't see how anyone can deny the impact FFS has had at the pro level.

  3. Member Bill2e's Avatar
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    #103
    Quote Originally Posted by tcesni View Post
    Jeff,

    Well written summary but I think you forgot one other aspect and that is jealousy. FFS costs more than prior electronic aids and some folks don't think they can afford it and aren't happy about it. Usually they aren't thinking clearly about how they invest the money they spend in fishing. Ten decent rods and reels will pay for a good FFS unit and how many of us need 20 rods and reels in our boats? Its also about choices. I've only had a FFS for a bit more than a year and as a biologist I am fascinated to observe fish behavior below the water line.
    This debate is all about jealousy.

    Innovate or evaporate.

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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjenson View Post
    Part of that is social media not being as widespread either.

    I still think mapping / gps might be a bigger deal than FFS. It would be very, very hard to pick between the two if one had to go.
    Yea if I can keep sidescan and di and FFS, no doubt I’d leave gps/mapping at home. Make traversing lakes more challenging but as far as finding catching fish, no doubt I’d leave the map.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2e View Post
    This debate is all about jealousy.

    Innovate or evaporate.

    No different than a local club
    I have it and do well with it. I’ll use it and fish with it till they tell me to quit lol. But if they do deem it unsporting, I can see some of the reasoning. I think trying to parse it down to a single “something” isn’t correct tbh. It’s a huge conglomerate of things influencing the opinions of both anti and pro ffs guys.

  6. Member
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    #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Quillback View Post
    I don't see guys at the pro level using only mapping and GPS to win tourneys. I bet if you gave them a choice of giving up mapping GPS or FFS, they'd give up the map/GPS. I really don't see how anyone can deny the impact FFS has had at the pro level.
    I would take ffs all day over mapping.

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    #107
    Wow. Just. Wow............ People really get into some really deep thinking over this. This is really very simple. Either you want to buy it and use it, or you don't. Don't impose your will on those who choose to, and don't impose your will on those who don't.

    This isn't life or death here. It's just the latest gadget to go fishing with. A glorified toy for people to use in what is essentially a recreational activity, regardless of the fact that a few compete in it and get sponsored to help sell the toys to the people who will only ever be recreational participants.

    Relax. Take a deep breath. Now breathe out. Close your eyes, calm yourself. Its all gonna be ok, the sun will come up tomorrow, the fish will still be in some lake somewhere for you to catch however you wish. It's just fishing.

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    #108
    Quote Originally Posted by TritonJT View Post
    I would take ffs all day over mapping.
    I'm the opposite but I also fish offshore a lot and mapping saves a ton of idling around looking for that small spot out of the middle of who knows where.
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  9. Member Bill2e's Avatar
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    #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Spot-a-saurus View Post
    I have it and do well with it. I’ll use it and fish with it till they tell me to quit lol. But if they do deem it unsporting, I can see some of the reasoning. I think trying to parse it down to a single “something” isn’t correct tbh. It’s a huge conglomerate of things influencing the opinions of both anti and pro ffs guys.

    I have it. Hasn’t really help me.

    I haven’t put the required time on the water to learn it.
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    #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjenson View Post
    Part of that is social media not being as widespread either.

    I still think mapping / gps might be a bigger deal than FFS. It would be very, very hard to pick between the two if one had to go.
    For people running unfamiliar lakes, mapping/gps is a huge safety factor.

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    #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hahn View Post
    These two posts on the "Old Guard getting their teeth kicked in" thread got my attention.





    I think that both of these guys have hit on some key ideas regarding the FFS debate that I've been thinking about in light of my past research on bass fishermen. As some here may know, before I retired I used my training in Sociology to do research and writing on bass fishermen. It started out by doing consulting research for Tom Mann at Fish World in 1984, which got the attention of several folks in the American Fisheries Society. Fisheries managers do a great job managing fisheries resources. But, they have serious problems managing resource users. Thus, they became increasingly interested in having social scientists contribute to their field. As a result, I ended up presenting several papers and publishing several articles in fisheries journals, including a couple co-authored with Hal Schram and Steve Quinn. This isn't meant to brag, but to lay the groundwork for what I am going to say.

    Much of what I did was built on the ground breaking work in the Sociology of Sport by Dr. Hobson Bryan of the University of Alabama. Hobson fished B.A.S.S. events for several years (he even led Megabucks on Lake Murray on Day 1 one year) and later conducted the economic impact studies done by B.A.S.S. at the Classic. If you were ever interviewed by someone at the Classic regarding your spending while attending the event, Hobson was behind all of that.

    The whole purpose of sports and competition is to differentiate skill from luck. And, one of the key components of Hobson's work was the idea that those who are highly skilled and knowledgeable and regularly engage in a given sport will only use equipment that serves as a supplement to their skill and knowledge, rather than a substitute for their skill and knowledge. Over the years, many electronic devices have hit the bass fishing market. Some were eagerly adopted by bass fishermen and others were not. I found this interesting in light of Hobson's work and conducted a study in the late 1980's to see which electronic devices bass fishermen were and were not using. By examining Bassmaster and In-Fisherman magazines, I found 13 electronic devices that were being marketed to fishermen. I surveyed numerous bass fishermen and discovered that bass fishermen would readily adopt electronic technology that aided them in finding fish (flasher, graph, LCD, video sonar, water temp meter, ph meter, Loran C), but rarely adopted electronic technology that aided them in catching fish (Color-C-Lector, Pro-Guide [device marketed by a couple pros to tell you which baits to use under the conditions], Bassmate [similar to Pro-Guide], Diawa computerized fishing reel, Bass Raider, Little Litin' [the last two being electronic lures]. In the late 1990's, I had an adult student finishing his degree in Sociology who, along with his son, belonged to my bass club. He replicated my research for his senior research project and, although by then there were new electronic devices on the market, the result were the same. Serious bass fishermen are willing to adopt electronic equipment that helps them find bass, but not catch bass.

    I think this distinction lies at the heart of the FFS debate. Although we often refer to flashers, graphs, LCR's, and now down imaging and side imaging as FISH FINDERS, in reality, those devices are for more helpful in finding the types of places fish are likely to be, rather than actually using them to find and catch fish. In contrast, FFS is specifically designed to help fisherman CATCH fish. Heck, you can see exactly where they are, exactly where to make a cast, exactly which way they are swimming, and exactly how they are reacting to your lure and presentation.

    Those arguing against FFS are essentially saying that FFS is a substitute for skill and knowledge, not a supplement to the angler's skill and knowledge. In the past, pros used their knowledge of seasonal patterns to narrow down areas of the lake as most likely to hold fish for a given time of year. Then, they used their maps to find the types of places within those areas that are likely to hold bass. Then, they used their electronics to find those spots that they saw on their map. Finally, the only way to confirm that there were fish there was to carefully fish the spots. Contrast that with many of the pros now using FFS. While they are not necessarily just randomly scanning water anywhere in the lake, once they decide where to fish given the season of year, they are then spending their time scoping, not even making a cast until they find specific fish. Thus, this has led some on BBC to say that FFS is the same as spotlighting deer. In short, they are saying that using FFS is not "fair chase." In addition, opponents of FFS are arguing that the expertise required to operate FFS technology is not fishing knowledge and skills, developed by spending years on the water. The best fisherman is now someone who is "tech savvy" not necessarily "fish or outdoor savvy." And, they did not develop these skills and this expertise by spending time in the outdoors, but instead by spending time behind a computer or video screen. The question then becomes, "Is this the direction in which the sport of bass fishing, and specifically, tournament bass fishing should go?"

    It's a very reasonable debate!
    How do u separate the "luck" factor between skill and knowledge? There has been some guys that got lucky and won tournys on the elites. Justin Lucas at the Potomac is one instance.

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    #112
    I'm not sure about the lucky aspect, but spending money helps. In the right hands of course.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Wow. Just. Wow............ People really get into some really deep thinking over this. This is really very simple. Either you want to buy it and use it, or you don't. Don't impose your will on those who choose to, and don't impose your will on those who don't.

    This isn't life or death here. It's just the latest gadget to go fishing with. A glorified toy for people to use in what is essentially a recreational activity, regardless of the fact that a few compete in it and get sponsored to help sell the toys to the people who will only ever be recreational participants.

    Relax. Take a deep breath. Now breathe out. Close your eyes, calm yourself. It’s all gonna be ok, the sun will come up tomorrow, the fish will still be in some lake somewhere for you to catch however you wish. It's just fishing.
    To be honest, of all the threads I’ve ever seen on here, this has been the most cordial one I’ve seen on the topic. The sun will certainly come up tomorrow and everyone is free to debate if they want or not. No one is required to read or reply

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    #114
    Anyone that says they can do the same thing with 2d and side imaging as you can with FFS should have been putting up their $$$ for the last 30 years. Their name would be the brand,,,,Not KVD.

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    #115
    Quote Originally Posted by jcdogfish View Post
    Anyone that says they can do the same thing with 2d and side imaging as you can with FFS should have been putting up their $$$ for the last 30 years. Their name would be the brand,,,,Not KVD.
    If you're waiting for the prices to drop on a unit and they do that means it's already outdated

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    #116
    Quote Originally Posted by BillsFan View Post
    If you're waiting for the prices to drop on a unit and they do that means it's already outdated
    Huh??

  17. Member
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    #117
    Quote Originally Posted by TritonJT View Post
    I would take ffs all day over mapping.
    I dunno. I fish a huge section of river with absolutely terrible mapping occasionally (honestly might as well not be mapped), and it takes a lot of time idling finding fishy water. If you just drop the trolling motor and pan around it would be a complete waste of time. Not saying most lakes are like that, but most tournament lakes for the elites are giant with lots of dead water. Mapping is a big deal.
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  18. Member
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    #118
    Quote Originally Posted by jcdogfish View Post
    Huh??
    Hence if you don't have top of the line electronics stay home

  19. Expert at Retired RangrSkipr's Avatar
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    #119
    These discussions are exhausting.

    Like me, I would venture to say there are a whole lot of guys on here that have caught some really nice fish in their lifetimes. Also like me, I would bet that most of those are a great memory etched in your mind that you can easily recall when how and where you caught everyone of them. But that was then and this is now and guess what, the fish I'm catching with FFS today are are just as, if not more so, just as exciting and satisfying as it was 20 years ago. You guys can discuss and argue the benefits, downfalls and righteous use of the latest technology all you want. I would suggest that it doesn't really effect you one way or the other and just go out and make some more memories with or without it

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    #120
    Quote Originally Posted by RangrSkipr View Post
    These discussions are exhausting.

    Like me, I would venture to say there are a whole lot of guys on here that have caught some really nice fish in their lifetimes. Also like me, I would bet that most of those are a great memory etched in your mind that you can easily recall when how and where you caught everyone of them. But that was then and this is now and guess what, the fish I'm catching with FFS today are are just as, if not more so, just as exciting and satisfying as it was 20 years ago. You guys can discuss and argue the benefits, downfalls and righteous use of the latest technology all you want. I would suggest that it doesn't really effect you one way or the other and just go out and make some more memories with or without it
    So insightful. Hopefully everyone else benefits as much as I did from reading this.

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