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  1. #1
    Member Jeff Hahn's Avatar
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    Trying to explain the FFS debate

    These two posts on the "Old Guard getting their teeth kicked in" thread got my attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcdogfish View Post
    I think the organizations have to made the decision on how they want the sport to be defined. Is it going to be the best anglers or is it going to be based on the best at using technology to bring in the most weight. This goes all the way back to the beginnings of flashers, gps, navionics, etc. We are here now because of the old boiling the frog deal. If done slowly he does not jump out. This has been a steady progression to the point old fishing skills are not near as important. Most other sports limit the equipment advancements to keep the integrity of the game and most have done a good job of it. There is a lot better equipment in all sports but other sports tend to look at it differently. Yes, you have better protection in football, rules to help with injury but I doubt they would allow a screen to show up on a quarterbacks face shield that shows a birds eye view of the field. In baseball there are better gloves, bats, cleats etc, but they drew the line at aluminum bats and hot balls. Golf is the same with some equipment restrictions. Looking back Ray Scott had it right in the first classic. To compete for the best in fishing equipment was all the same, nobody knew where they were going so the field was as even as possible. Whats strange is they put in a rule about getting information before tournaments because the old guys had networks, experience on the lakes fished, and contacts across the country's fisheries. Whats strange is everyone knows its a lot easier for the younger generation to embrace the new technology and learn a lot quicker so should they look at that too? I can see where a person really good with FFS, salt water FFS can go to an area and just scope for fish to throw at. Like at Toledo Bend. Look at the history of where tournaments are won there. If you just want to look for fish to scope its a good bet to go to Housen and scope for a week. You are going to run across some fish. Is that what we want Pro fishing to be? Watching some yesterday and today I notice you don't have to experiment much with lure cadence, the FFS shows you how the fish is reacting to what you are doing so you can adjust on the fly. Do they all bite,,of course not, But it is not traditional fishing. I don't know which way the sport should go, don't know if technology should be limited or not. Will there be some standards or guidelines to what technology can be used? Time will tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thamelau View Post
    I'm curious as to how you differentiate "the best anglers" and being "the best at using technology to bring in the most weight." The best angler brings in the most weight, and uses all the tools at their disposal to do such. I guess it comes down to where you draw the line with what is unacceptable technology and what is acceptable technology if you want to differentiate the 2. Is it just any sonar is too much, just forward facing sonar, is mapping too much, are trolling motors and/or outboards too much, should we ask them not to use graphite rods or fiberglass boats? They all have access to the same technology, and I believe all have the latest and greatest technology, except 1 or 2 that are doing it to make a point, not because they can't afford it.
    I think that both of these guys have hit on some key ideas regarding the FFS debate that I've been thinking about in light of my past research on bass fishermen. As some here may know, before I retired I used my training in Sociology to do research and writing on bass fishermen. It started out by doing consulting research for Tom Mann at Fish World in 1984, which got the attention of several folks in the American Fisheries Society. Fisheries managers do a great job managing fisheries resources. But, they have serious problems managing resource users. Thus, they became increasingly interested in having social scientists contribute to their field. As a result, I ended up presenting several papers and publishing several articles in fisheries journals, including a couple co-authored with Hal Schram and Steve Quinn. This isn't meant to brag, but to lay the groundwork for what I am going to say.

    Much of what I did was built on the ground breaking work in the Sociology of Sport by Dr. Hobson Bryan of the University of Alabama. Hobson fished B.A.S.S. events for several years (he even led Megabucks on Lake Murray on Day 1 one year) and later conducted the economic impact studies done by B.A.S.S. at the Classic. If you were ever interviewed by someone at the Classic regarding your spending while attending the event, Hobson was behind all of that.

    The whole purpose of sports and competition is to differentiate skill from luck. And, one of the key components of Hobson's work was the idea that those who are highly skilled and knowledgeable and regularly engage in a given sport will only use equipment that serves as a supplement to their skill and knowledge, rather than a substitute for their skill and knowledge. Over the years, many electronic devices have hit the bass fishing market. Some were eagerly adopted by bass fishermen and others were not. I found this interesting in light of Hobson's work and conducted a study in the late 1980's to see which electronic devices bass fishermen were and were not using. By examining Bassmaster and In-Fisherman magazines, I found 13 electronic devices that were being marketed to fishermen. I surveyed numerous bass fishermen and discovered that bass fishermen would readily adopt electronic technology that aided them in finding fish (flasher, graph, LCD, video sonar, water temp meter, ph meter, Loran C), but rarely adopted electronic technology that aided them in catching fish (Color-C-Lector, Pro-Guide [device marketed by a couple pros to tell you which baits to use under the conditions], Bassmate [similar to Pro-Guide], Diawa computerized fishing reel, Bass Raider, Little Litin' [the last two being electronic lures]. In the late 1990's, I had an adult student finishing his degree in Sociology who, along with his son, belonged to my bass club. He replicated my research for his senior research project and, although by then there were new electronic devices on the market, the result were the same. Serious bass fishermen are willing to adopt electronic equipment that helps them find bass, but not catch bass.

    I think this distinction lies at the heart of the FFS debate. Although we often refer to flashers, graphs, LCR's, and now down imaging and side imaging as FISH FINDERS, in reality, those devices are for more helpful in finding the types of places fish are likely to be, rather than actually using them to find and catch fish. In contrast, FFS is specifically designed to help fisherman CATCH fish. Heck, you can see exactly where they are, exactly where to make a cast, exactly which way they are swimming, and exactly how they are reacting to your lure and presentation.

    Those arguing against FFS are essentially saying that FFS is a substitute for skill and knowledge, not a supplement to the angler's skill and knowledge. In the past, pros used their knowledge of seasonal patterns to narrow down areas of the lake as most likely to hold fish for a given time of year. Then, they used their maps to find the types of places within those areas that are likely to hold bass. Then, they used their electronics to find those spots that they saw on their map. Finally, the only way to confirm that there were fish there was to carefully fish the spots. Contrast that with many of the pros now using FFS. While they are not necessarily just randomly scanning water anywhere in the lake, once they decide where to fish given the season of year, they are then spending their time scoping, not even making a cast until they find specific fish. Thus, this has led some on BBC to say that FFS is the same as spotlighting deer. In short, they are saying that using FFS is not "fair chase." In addition, opponents of FFS are arguing that the expertise required to operate FFS technology is not fishing knowledge and skills, developed by spending years on the water. The best fisherman is now someone who is "tech savvy" not necessarily "fish or outdoor savvy." And, they did not develop these skills and this expertise by spending time in the outdoors, but instead by spending time behind a computer or video screen. The question then becomes, "Is this the direction in which the sport of bass fishing, and specifically, tournament bass fishing should go?"

    It's a very reasonable debate!
    Last edited by Jeff Hahn; 03-01-2024 at 12:28 PM.
    "The man of system is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamored with the supposed beauty of his own ideal plan of government that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it…He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as the hand arranges the different pieces upon a chessboard.” Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments

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    #2
    Many agree with you. I’m pretty sure. I’m not reading all that.
    Hang on. I'll help you in 77 minutes.

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    #3
    Cliff notes or you won’t get any responses.

  4. Member Jeff Hahn's Avatar
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    #4
    Sorry guys. A complex topic can't always be boiled down into a short USA Today type sidebar piece.
    "The man of system is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamored with the supposed beauty of his own ideal plan of government that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it…He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as the hand arranges the different pieces upon a chessboard.” Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments

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    #5
    Make a video out of it. Read it back to your phone. Maybe in the truck or close in, heart-felt like Gerald.
    Hang on. I'll help you in 77 minutes.

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    #6
    Casteledine posted a video yesterday that he believes going forward tournament fishing will be referred to as the FFS period of fishing. The line has been etched where there is distinction with a before and after.

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    #7
    I thought your post was long winded, but then I got to your signature. Didn't read anything that hasn't been said a million times, so not really sure where you're trying to go, but I'd recommend Google maps, for a more direct route.

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    #8
    Holy cow. Tl;DR. Cliff notes? Eesh.
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  9. Member jp71291's Avatar
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    #9
    It's not that long of a read. Geez.
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    #10
    Jeff, I think for the most part you are correct. I even find myself going back and forth on the debate at this point. Davy Hite wrote a pretty good article a few days ago and he was not arguing for or against, but said said something to the effect that Ray Scott wanted tournament fishing to be about the allure of the unknown (https://www.bassmaster.com/column/da...-sonar-debate/). I am pretty sure Ray would have a good answer if he was still around. I suppose my main concern is long-term will it damage the resource (bass populations)? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post and I do wish more on here would try to have a civil debate without being so combative.

  11. Member Quillback's Avatar
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    #11
    I read it and I basically agree, there's no doubt FFS has a big impact especially at the pro level. Heck 19 year old Trey McKinney is leading today at Fork. How much bass fishing experience can he have? Not knocking him by the way, I salute him for mastering the technology.

    That being said, I am fine with FFS, doesn't affect my fishing, but I don't competitively tourney fish.

    Have we talked about this before?

  12. Member tcesni's Avatar
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    #12
    Jeff,

    Well written summary but I think you forgot one other aspect and that is jealousy. FFS costs more than prior electronic aids and some folks don't think they can afford it and aren't happy about it. Usually they aren't thinking clearly about how they invest the money they spend in fishing. Ten decent rods and reels will pay for a good FFS unit and how many of us need 20 rods and reels in our boats? Its also about choices. I've only had a FFS for a bit more than a year and as a biologist I am fascinated to observe fish behavior below the water line.

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    #13
    I read it all and found it interesting and with some valid points.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bass in the grass View Post
    Cliff notes or you won’t get any responses.
    This and how many additional threads need to be created on this topic?

  15. Member rds_nc's Avatar
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    #15
    That is a very well written synopsis of the FFS debate! Interesting finding between fisherman using electronics to find fish versus catch fish. FFS certainly merges those two concepts into one readily available product.
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    #16
    I read it all and appreciate you taking the time to post. It seems like very few folks on here are open minded enough to discuss the topic. It truly is groundbreaking technology associated with something I’ve been obsessed with nearly my whole life.

    I’m 40 and use the technology. I’m not one who can’t afford it, who can’t adapt or who is generally bitching just to bitch.

    I truly have reservations on the long term effect on tournament fishing and fisheries in general. I don’t know what the end results are, but I’m not one to put my head in the sand and expect things to not change.

    I don’t love what widespread adoption looks like in tournaments - ones I watch, ones I fish. I have concerns of the impact on fisheries. Everyone thinks fisheries biologists have it under control. Not a knock on them, but their sampling/data will take years to obtain/assess. It will be noticed by anglers way before they “know” anything.

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    #17
    Ok den to much to read while driving like others said cliff notes please.

  18. Member june-bug's Avatar
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by tcesni View Post
    Jeff,

    Well written summary but I think you forgot one other aspect and that is jealousy. FFS costs more than prior electronic aids and some folks don't think they can afford it and aren't happy about it. Usually they aren't thinking clearly about how they invest the money they spend in fishing. Ten decent rods and reels will pay for a good FFS unit and how many of us need 20 rods and reels in our boats? Its also about choices. I've only had a FFS for a bit more than a year and as a biologist I am fascinated to observe fish behavior below the water line.
    You really only need a few rod and reels with FFS.




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    #19
    FSS is only the beginning. If you think it's stopping here you would be wrong. Soon your unit will tell where to find fish, what lure, when to cast, and select your predetermined fish size or weight. Not only that but your unit maybe comminating with other units on the lake to gather their data. How can it not impact a lake with some lakes having multiple tournaments on the weekends and some during the week. These resources do not belong to MLF or BASS or whatever tournament you are fishing or to you simply because you have the technology. The lure isle at T/W and Bass pro will dry up and the people/resources you need to support your DNR will also. Remember not everyone will turn the 12lber loose.

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    #20
    It all comes down to, get it and learn it or be at a disadvantage..

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