1990 Ranger 393v Yamaha Pro V 200 HP
Did you go to cloudchurch.org? a very interesting site that strongly tell you that the "KING JAMES ONLYISM IS WHAT ALL TRUE BIBLE BELIEVERS WILL EVENTUALLY COME TO IF THEY SIMPLY STUDY THE ISSUE!", which says to believers you are on the wrong path unless you accept their opinion of this being the only acceptable and reliable Scripture. They even have a video telling you why they are correct and all others are wrong, which that in itself makes it a very scarry proposition with a cult like approach, and the following is part of their doctrine "The King James Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. And, we believe and accept that the King James Bible is our law and book of instruction and it is our duty to judge all things by it, believing and reserving the right to judge all church matters within the church itself".
According to this preacher, the Gospels, Matt-John, are still OT and not NT, and only the epistles of Paul, Romans-Philemon, are truly the NT of Grace and the true doctrine for Christians, for because of the atonement we are as righteous as God, which that would make Jesus wrong.
All sins were paid at the cross, that is correct, and all of our sins are forgiven for all time, however, this does not give us a free pass to continue in our sinfulness, which Paul makes it clear in Romans 6. The preacher goes on to explain that a Christian shouldn't sin, and if you sin, only the body sins, the prison of flesh, because the new spirit in you cannot sin, which again, it's not what Paul teaches, even if he wants to use that to support his statement. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and we are not compartmentalized, as he seems to be teaching. If you obey the Holy Spirit, our flesh would not sin, but because we are sinful beings, we depart from what the Holy Spirit teaches us even in our hearts, and fail the will of God. He uses many different verses to support his statement, but when we read the entire context of those verses, they do not support his statements, though again, he does say that we should do everything we can not to sin.
Again, I agree with what he says that we as Christian should do all we can not to sin according to what Paul teaches in 1 Cor 6, but when we read the entire chapter, it is against the concept of sin being compartmentalized between flesh and spirit, yet, he says that a sinful Christian cannot loose is salvation only his rewards. Interestingly, he uses Hebrews 12 to finish, which it teaches us of how God chastises us when Christians sin, "Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
BTW, I lost count in the many times he refers to his church web site to support the content of the video, and the many questionable statements he makes there in it.
Have no idea who or what denomination of the Christian faith teaches....if your a Christian you can not sin? Anybody?
He never mentioned the temporal punishment due to sin......
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
I believe that the above is a catholic only believe.Originally Posted by drifter106
It is a catholic belief....it filters into other aspects of life as well.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
Digthemup, you nailed it in both of your replies. Nicely done. Temporal punishment is as made-up as the unbiblical nonsense the gentlemen in the video was allowing to fall from his open mouth. Life is incredibly difficult and yet we are being bombarded from all sides with fake theology that, as Digthemup accurately pointed out once again, derived from out of context scripture. Something to ponder…. Which religious systems seem to prosper these days and amass great wealth, power and influence - the simple bible-based churches, or the ones that seem to forget to include the context within their beliefs?
I did not watch, but to address the question, I'll proffer Acts 4:32 - 5:11.
Interestingly, he does not even address anything in Acts, and he says that the Gospels, Matt-John, should not be part of the NT and should be in the OT, since that is what they are teaching from.
What is your thoughts on this? which I know it doesn't make sense.
Can you help me understand this? Thanks John
I get this a LITTLE bit, in that Jesus spent a lot of time talking about the law, and the gospel accounts were an overview of the life of Jesus. Not until he passed did the New Covenant take effect. But he was teaching them the New Covenant, so it seems to me that's where it should be "placed." We have to remember, however, that the biblical account is ONE huge story and it gives the full description of the birth of man, fall of man, and man's reconciliation to God. Labels are all man-made (just as the end of Acts 4 and the beginning of Acts 5 really should be placed together).
You are right that the New Covenant doesn't start until the cross, but the Gospels are the teachings and commandments of Christ, in which He does use the OT to teach us what God desires from and for us. To say that the Gospels should be part of the OT is erroneous teaching, regardless of the scrolls being one huge story.
And there was probably a 400 year gap for a reason.
Making sure this excellent question does not get lost in the thread…
Would be glad to explain...in my own words and what I know about temporal punishment coming from the OLD TESTAMENT.
Temporal punishment is due to sin..... It is clearly the teaching of Scripture. Even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God. Let's look at the first sin of mankind (Adam and Eve)....God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things. But....still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust.
Another Scriptural example....God forgive the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise".
Speaking of David...the Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme HIS HOLY NAME.
One would consider these examples harsh but they do set a precedent for us to use.
So to insinuate that temporal punishment has no Scriptural foundation is just wrong. The key here is penance (repentance)....that in itself can be limitless. Almsgiving, prayer, fasting are but a few of the many ways to remove temporal punishment.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
Drifter106 - You are correct in your description of the consequences of sin. God never promised us an escape from the negatives of sinful behavior. I am curious as to why you did not list purgatory as one of the temporal punishments.
I can see where one could associate the loss of spiritual purity of Adam and Eve with the loss of the temporal garden of Eden, yet no amount of repentive actions on their part brought them back to the garden.
We could examine the rest of them, but the only conclusion we can come to is that there is consequences to our worldly action, both spiritual and in the flesh, with some of them having collateral damage to innocent individuals, especially in David's lustful action that led to murder of his friend and the death of the child. David repented, and his repentance was accepted by God in spiritual forgiveness, however, no action on his part or that of others, such as Nathan the prophet, changed the temporal consequence of his action.
God called Moses to be "His mouth" and "there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto the man Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.” Moses was obviously a man with unique relationship with the Lord, which I am sure could not have been if he had sin still in him, though the fruits of his sin for misrepresenting God at the water of Meribah was not entering the promised land.
I am sure that if it was a matter of prayer, fasting, or any other action on his part for the removal of this temporal sin, Moses would have fulfilled the requirement in all the yrs he walked with God.
Since the Passion of Christ at the Cross, our spiritual sins are fully atoned by His blood, though the worldly consequences for those sins could have great impact in our lives as well as that of others that no amount of temporal recompence can repair.
Each individual will need to account for their actions in this life. Remember, Jesus said... "Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny". Think about that and apply whatever works....
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
Drifter106 - Forgive me, but the Catholic Church is masterful in amassing power through the persuasion brought about in the void of context... I have addressed this snippet of a verse before, but it is definitely worth revisiting. Below is a cut-and-past from a previous thread where I addressed the lie called purgatory. Paragraph 5 addresses the snippet of the verse you cited above.
"Drifter106 - Thank you for sharing the video. Informative and thought provoking. One very minor point - not all Christian churches have changed "catholic" to "christian", as the word catholic used in the context of the Creed means "unified." Our church recites the Creed as written above. With that having been said, I am not sure if there is any contextual difference with the use of either word. The portion of the video I take issue with is the man-made, false-teaching of "purgatory." At best it is fallacy; at worst, it makes a bold statement that the saving blood of Jesus Christ was insufficient for the complete forgiveness of sin and blasphemously bestows credit to man for having worked out a portion of his entry into God's eternal presence.
I find it very interesting when religious theories are widely accepted, yet they are built upon small segments of scripture that are void of context or stand in direct opposition to many clearly written passages within the Bible. Purgatory is one of those unbiblical theories. I am also leery of church practices that attach a dollar figure to the unbiblical act.
Paragraph 1030 in the Catholic catechism says, "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." So, where did this false-teaching come from and why it never taught through God's Word?
Catholic.com cites Revelation 21:27 that says, "Nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven," as proof that man must undergo further purification (payment through suffering) in order to step into God's eternal presence. Unfortunately, they blatantly ignore the remainder of the verse that says, "but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." References to the book of life start in Exodus and carry to the end of the book of Revelation. Jesus is the keeper and author of the book of life as it is Him who provides our salvation through our faithful belief. Psalm 28 and 29 say, "Charge them [the unrighteous] with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your [Jesus'] salvation. May he be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous." Through the fully sufficient and final work of salvation through Jesus Christ, those who believe in Him are added to the book of life. Those who are in the book of life therefore are not part of the "unclean" who will not enter the presence of God in heaven.
Catholic.com goes on to explain how Luke 12:59 supports the false-teaching that Jesus' work on the cross and His blood was not quite good enough to provide for the true forgiveness of sin (often masked by describing it as the repercussion of those sins). Luke 12:59 says, "I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." You will notice the pattern where single lines of scripture are being cherry-picked to introduce complicated false teachings within the catechism. To put verse 59 into context we must look at several chapters proceeding verse 59. Jesus is addressing a large crowd. Jesus is providing warning and encouragements, parables illustrating the foolishness of not putting your faith in Him, being prepared, and speaking of the division that is ahead between believers and non-believers. In Luke 12:57-59 Jesus says, "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you going with your adversary to the magistrate, try to hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and the officer will throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." This parable is clearly the gospel - Satan is the adversary, Jesus is the magistrate who provides reconciliation, God is the judge, and the angels that throw the unrighteous into hell are the officers.
In an attempt to address whether the Catholic church "invented" purgatory, Catholic.com states, "Most professional anti-Catholics - the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism" - seem to place the blame [the invention of purgatory] on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590 to 604. But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in the Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven." The discussion continued for another paragraph or two without citing a single line of scripture. Are we therefore to take the thoughts of Monica, who through applying her own human logic, thinks it would not make sense to pray for the dead if purgatory was not real? Foolishness. The Bible is very clear, upon the moment of our death, our fate is sealed - whether it is in the hope of Jesus Christ and His resurrection, or not, no more intercession can be made. As an interesting side note, Muslims believe in version of purgatory (Barzakh), Mormons believe in baptism for the dead.
I will close with bringing attention to Luke 15:17-32, the parable of the prodigal son. When the prodigal son acknowledged his sin, repented and returned to his father and asked for forgiveness., the father ran to him with open arms, hugging his son and kissing him. The father placed the best robe on him, placed a ring on his finger, and called for a celebration. The prodigal son was welcomed back and fully restored. No where in the parable did Jesus say, well... after some hellish suffering in purgatory, the son was now worthy to be restored by the father."
John,
This is what Luke 12 says about the above:
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
58 When thou goes with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
Now you can see how it applies and what Jesus is talking about in this teaching.
Great explanation!
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