Pre Trib, Mid Trib or Post Trib Rapture?

[mram10us]

Let's take a verse at a time instead of cutting and pasting a novel :) first verse:
Revelation 3:10 (written to the church of Philadelphia)
10Because you have kept[g]My command to persevere,I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come uponthe whole world, to test those who dwellon the earth.

[bassfishinglawyer]

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown

[1Holeshot]

Let's take a verse at a time instead of cutting and pasting a novel :) first verse:
Revelation 3:10 (written to the church of Philadelphia)
10Because you have kept[g]My command to persevere,I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come uponthe whole world, to test those who dwellon the earth.

As a Pre Trib believer this is one of the verses that supports my belief.

[mram10us]

11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown

Expand, good sir :)

[CajunBass]

Not in the intended scope of the thread, but I couldn't help but smile and remember my old mentor and professor, Dr. Brown, who said, "I'm so pre-trib, I won't even eat Post Toasties."

Carry on.

[bassfishinglawyer]

Just adding a little context - of course there can be just as many viewpoints on that verse as there can be on the verse above it. And, putting in more context, even to verse 7.

[mram10us]

Just adding a little context - of course there can be just as many viewpoints on that verse as there can be on the verse above it. And, putting in more context, even to verse 7.

Let's look at the entire section to elaborate:
Revelation 3
The Faithful Church

7“And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write,‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, [f]and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.10Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11[h]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.13“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

[bassfishinglawyer]

- what can we learn from this church?

Be strong
Keep His Word/don't deny his name
Persevere

Doesn't sound hard, but somehow we fail and falter often

[mram10us]

- what can we learn from this church?

Be strong
Keep His Word/don't deny his name
Persevere

Doesn't sound hard, but somehow we fail and falter often

Amen. Those things too. I don't think we can discount the clarity of verse 10 "hour of trial which shall come uponthe whole world, to test those who dwellon the earth"

[mram10us]

Point 2:
it is interesting that the "church" is mentioned a lot in revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again. The reference then turns to "saints".
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,and to overcome them: and power was given him over allkindreds, and tongues, and nations
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: hereare they that keepthe commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Interesting to me

[digthemup]

Let's look at the entire section to elaborate:
Revelation 3
The Faithful Church

7“And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write,‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, [f]and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.10Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11[h]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.13“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

These are tremendous passages in Revelation where Christ is weighing the works of the churches or those that had received the word of the teachings of Jesus and clarifying the 'needs' which many of them have due to moving away from that which they had originally received at their conversions. My personal take of verse 10, taking in context when this was written, Christ could be talking about all the hardships and persecutions against Christians was about to befall them because of their believes conflicting against Rome and the empire.

BTW, based on human experiences, it is innate human nature to wish to avoid hardship and suffering, which makes me wonder how those that believe in post tribulation would explain this character.

[mram10us]

These are tremendous passages in Revelation where Christ is weighing the works of the churches or those that had received the word of the teachings of Jesus and clarifying the 'needs' which many of them have due to moving away from that which they had originally received at their conversions. My personal take of verse 10, taking in context when this was written, Christ could be talking about all the hardships and persecutions against Christians was about to befall them because of their believes conflicting against Rome and the empire.

BTW, based on human experiences, it is innate human nature to wish to avoid hardship and suffering, which makes me wonder how those that believe in post tribulation would explain this character.

It is a trial for the "whole world" to test "those who dwell on the earth", so it seems to be more than just the churches or the roman occupation. The worst part was ad70 and revelation could have been written around 90ad.

[bassfishinglawyer]

I see what you are talking about regarding the timing. But then He said He was going to keep THEM from the hour of trial, which makes you think it is something that would occur sooner rather than later. IDK the answer

[digthemup]

It is a trial for the "whole world" to test "those who dwell on the earth", so it seems to be more than just the churches or the roman occupation. The worst part was ad70 and revelation could have been written around 90ad.

What is the "whole world" onto those that only knew their world? It is easy for us to make assumptions based on what we know today, especially since we have the scriptures to guide us and provide answers for us, which those of the 'then whole world' who dwelled on the earth had no privilege of such.

I had the privilege to go through a very small community of Amish folks while taking a construction detour yrs ago, and I saw these 2 teenagers walking on the side of Rt 11B in Upstate NY, so I asked them for direction for getting back to Canton Rt 11. Politely, they made it clear that they have never left their community, and to ask the 'englisher' down the road yonder, thanking them while swallowing hard for having been bless to have shared that moment of pure innocence. I stopped to chat with the fella at the little corner house store, with the only rotary phone these folks had for emergency, and walked away with a new felt sense of humbleness and the most delicious strawberry rhubarb pie.

Be well my friend.

[mram10us]

I see what you are talking about regarding the timing. But then He said He was going to keep THEM from the hour of trial, which makes you think it is something that would occur sooner rather than later. IDK the answer

Very true

[mram10us]

What is the "whole world" onto those that only knew their world? It is easy for us to make assumptions based on what we know today, especially since we have the scriptures to guide us and provide answers for us, which those of the 'then whole world' who dwelled on the earth had no privilege of such.

I had the privilege to go through a very small community of Amish folks while taking a construction detour yrs ago, and I saw these 2 teenagers walking on the side of Rt 11B in Upstate NY, so I asked them for direction for getting back to Canton Rt 11. Politely, they made it clear that they have never left their community, and to ask the 'englisher' down the road yonder, thanking them while swallowing hard for having been bless to have shared that moment of pure innocence. I stopped to chat with the fella at the little corner house store, with the only rotary phone these folks had for emergency, and walked away with a new felt sense of humbleness and the most delicious strawberry rhubarb pie.

Be well my friend.

They were well aware the world was not just their little area :) come on brother :) Be well also

[digthemup]

They were well aware the world was not just their little area :) come on brother :) Be well also

I believe that you missed the point that this young'uns were well aware that there was more out there, by the fact of sending me to the 'englisher', yet, they did not seem to have any desire of what was happening out there, somewhat in the same way the Hebrews saw the rest of the world in Christ's time as the gentiles or heathens. Jesus made it clear that He came for the people of Israel, although as we know, He was rejected by them.
Until Christ chose Saul as the prophet to the gentiles, we have no part in the message of salvation, no different than the Samaritans, though a blood relation to the Hebrews, they were cast away according to them. It is proposed that the Samaritans are the residue left of the Northerns tribes when Israel was sent into exiled for 70 yrs to Babylon, and they kept the original Mount Gerizim near Shechem as their worship place, since they felt the returning Hebrews had altered and corrupted their religion.

In my opinion, Christ taught us to ask the Father to keep us from the hour of temptation in the Lord's prayer, which is also something asked by Jabez in his prayer onto God. 1 Chronicles 4:10

'Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial'

[magfluker]

As a Pre Trib believer this is one of the verses that supports my belief.

What other verses support your belief?

[1Holeshot]

What other verses support your belief?

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
John 14:1-4
1 Corinthians 15:51-58
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
The Rapture could happen at any moment and without warning and the Second coming is preceded by many signs, so I believe the Rapture and Second coming are different events. The Rapture has to occur before seven years worth of signs, because Christians are called to look for the Lord's return rather than signs such as the Antichrist's arrival.
Once the signs begin, then the seven year countdown begins toward its end with Christ's return at the second coming.

Jesus' immement return dismisses any of the other viewpoints related to a Rapture that occurs within or at the end of the Tribulation.

The Rapture and the removal of the " Restrainer" occur at the same time.

In 2 Thessalonians, the church at Thessalonians's was afraid due to a false report that they had entered the Day of the Lord Tribulation and had somehow missed the Rapture. The Apostle Paul assured them that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force would be taken away so that the Man of Lawlessness could be revealed.

Because the revealing of the Antichrist coincides with the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation starting with his peace treaty with Israel ( Dan. 9:27 ), the the Restrainer has to be removed before the Tribulation. As the Holy Spirit also works in Salvation ( John 16:8-11, 1 Jn. 5:7), during the Tribulation, then it is the Church that must be the Restrainer that is removed. Therefore, the Rapture and the removal of the Church must coincide, and at the beginning of the seven years.

[1Holeshot]

Point 2:
it is interesting that the "church" is mentioned a lot in revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again. The reference then turns to "saints".
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,and to overcome them: and power was given him over allkindreds, and tongues, and nations
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: hereare they that keepthe commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Interesting to me

Could it be that the " church" has been taken up ( Raptured ) by this time? Sort of a Pre Trib event?