ETERNAL SECURITY Part 1

[1Holeshot]

All people are sinners. Romans 3:10-12

10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.

Salvation is a gift of God. Romans 3:23-26

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through Faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God passed over the sins previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Saved by Grace Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Children of God John 1:12

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

Sons of God Romans 8 14-17

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs---heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Nothing can separate us from God's love. Romans 8 31-39

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us. 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the Slaughter"

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor ant other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[GPtimes2]

[mram10us]

Great verses. I had a calvanist gentlemen explain this concept like "irresistible grace". At first we had different definitions, because I assumed he meant eternal security based on our free will. In other words, can we choose to reject our eternal security? He, being a calvanist, used the "I" in TULIP which is "irresistible grace", thus we cannot resist or lose our salvation. Key differences: do we mean eternal security assuming we repent and believe in Christ, or, eternal security regarding outside forces (rom 8:39)?

[1Holeshot]

My understanding is that when we accept God's gift of Eternal Life we are His and have become heirs and joint heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven and are adopted into His family.

The outside forces cannot take us from Him. If that were possible then Satan would be stronger more powerful than God and we know that is not true. If Satan was that strong/powerful then God would not have been able to throw him and his followers out of Heaven. Of course God is Sovereign and therefore we are protected for all of eternity.

[CajunBass]

The Book of John...Chapter 10. (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 I and My Father are one."

[1Holeshot]

The Book of John...Chapter 10. (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 I and My Father are one."

Quoted exactly in Eternal Security Part 2.

Happy we are on the same page.

[mram10us]

My understanding is that when we accept God's gift of Eternal Life we are His and have become heirs and joint heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven and are adopted into His family.

The outside forces cannot take us from Him. If that were possible then Satan would be stronger more powerful than God and we know that is not true. If Satan was that strong/powerful then God would not have been able to throw him and his followers out of Heaven. Of course God is Sovereign and therefore we are protected for all of eternity.

Well said and biblically backed. No one can take us from God's hand. But, can we take ourselves out of His hand? It leads to the calvanist debate which is "can we ever deny Christ and lose our salvation?".

[mram10us]

To clarify, this is not an argument. I want the "iron sharpens iron" to make us better at answering questions. I don't think i have the answers, but i know the Bible does and we can help each other clarify :) here is a verse from hebrews 3.
12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Does this support the individual being able to lose their salvation?

[1Holeshot]

Well said and biblically backed. No one can take us from God's hand. But, can we take ourselves out of His hand? It leads to the calvanist debate which is "can we ever deny Christ and lose our salvation?".

Mike, my position is that anyone who desires to take themselves out of His hand were never actually " saved" in the first place. This is just my opinion as once we are truly " saved" we are adopted into the family of God and I do not know of a provision for being " unadopted".

Thank you for your questions as they stimulate us to search the scriptures for answers and we all can benefit by doing that.

[Chisco]

Great job Gary.

[1Holeshot]

Thank you Mike. I have learned a lot from you and Mike Mram and respect both of you very much.

[1Holeshot]

Great verses. I had a calvanist gentlemen explain this concept like "irresistible grace". At first we had different definitions, because I assumed he meant eternal security based on our free will. In other words, can we choose to reject our eternal security? He, being a calvanist, used the "I" in TULIP which is "irresistible grace", thus we cannot resist or lose our salvation. Key differences: do we mean eternal security assuming we repent and believe in Christ, or, eternal security regarding outside forces (rom 8:39)?

Mike, I have read some about Calvinism vs Arminianism and somewhat agree with both and disagree with both. Maybe I will someday devote enough prayer and study to better understand them.

[mram10us]

Mike, I have read some about Calvinism vs Arminianism and somewhat agree with both and disagree with both. Maybe I will someday devote enough prayer and study to better understand them.

Yes sir, appreciate you guys too. I took a dive into the calv v arm debate, and found that you don't have to be one or the other. Many false assumptions on both sides that simply studying the Bible will clarify if not taken out of context. Your comment about not being saved in the first place reminds me of these two verses
2peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

and 1 john 3:6-9
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

[1Holeshot]

Yes sir, appreciate you guys too. I took a dive into the calv v arm debate, and found that you don't have to be one or the other. Many false assumptions on both sides that simply studying the Bible will clarify if not taken out of context. Your comment about not being saved in the first place reminds me of these two verses
2peter 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

and 1 john 3:6-9
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The you don't have to be one or the other camp is where I am based on what I believe.

The passage from 2 Peter is not completely clear to me. I once knew about Jesus but did not " know" him as my Lord and Saviour because I had some strongholds in my life. After surrendering everything to Him and acknowledging Him as Lord of my life and the whole purpose of my existence, He gave me Eternal Security. If I believed that I could lose my Salvation, then I would be proclaiming that Satan is more powerful than Jesus and that is simply impossible. The passage from 1 John confirms that my sins past, present, and future have been forgiven. If that were not true then Jesus would have to be crucified again and again.

[CajunBass]

Quoted exactly in Eternal Security Part 2.

Happy we are on the same page.

Sorry. I didn't think to look at the "part 2."

That was always the first thing Dr. Brown would quote when the subject came up, so it's always the first I go to.

[mram10us]

The you don't have to be one or the other camp is where I am based on what I believe.

The passage from 2 Peter is not completely clear to me. I once knew about Jesus but did not " know" him as my Lord and Saviour because I had some strongholds in my life. After surrendering everything to Him and acknowledging Him as Lord of my life and the whole purpose of my existence, He gave me Eternal Security. If I believed that I could lose my Salvation, then I would be proclaiming that Satan is more powerful than Jesus and that is simply impossible. The passage from 1 John confirms that my sins past, present, and future have been forgiven. If that were not true then Jesus would have to be crucified again and again.

Clarification: when you say "lose my salvation" does that mean a christian could not stray from God and end up in hell?
The Bible is very clear that others cannot take our salvation from us, so that is not being questioned here.
I wonder how Paul's comments on "running the race" play into this. 2 timothy 4:7
7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith

Edit: i meant to ask how it proves Satan is more powerful than God if someone chooses via free will to give up their own salvation by living in sin.

[1Holeshot]

Clarification: when you say "lose my salvation" does that mean a christian could not stray from God and end up in hell?
The Bible is very clear that others cannot take our salvation from us, so that is not being questioned here.
I wonder how Paul's comments on "running the race" play into this. 2 timothy 4:7
7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith

Edit: i meant to ask how it proves Satan is more powerful than God if someone chooses via free will to give up their own salvation by living in sin.

Someone else has posed the same or similarly question and I will answer as I did before. First anyone who would renounce their salvation were not truly saved to begin with. They were a wolf in sheeps clothing. Second we are all " living in sin" as I challenge anyone to honestly say that they never sin. Most of us sin daily but do not lose our salvation by doing so. God knows our hearts including whether we are saved or pretending. He also tells us all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. My statement about Satan stealing someone's salvation would indicate that he is able to overcome God's Grace which is impossible. We all know that God is Sovereign and that Satan's future in the Lake of fire is sealed. Obviously Satan did not leave Heaven because he wanted too and no he is not, never was, and will never be more powerful than God. I used the metaphor about Satan being that powerful to show how it is impossible for him to steal our salvation. We are either saved or we are not. I am saved because I was the most sincere that I have ever been when I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour.

I hope this this explains my statement a little better.

[mram10us]

Someone else has posed the same or similarly question and I will answer as I did before. First anyone who would renounce their salvation were not truly saved to begin with. They were a wolf in sheeps clothing. Second we are all " living in sin" as I challenge anyone to honestly say that they never sin. Most of us sin daily but do not lose our salvation by doing so. God knows our hearts including whether we are saved or pretending. He also tells us all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. My statement about Satan stealing someone's salvation would indicate that he is able to overcome God's Grace which is impossible. We all know that God is Sovereign and that Satan's future in the Lake of fire is sealed. Obviously Satan did not leave Heaven because he wanted too and no he is not, never was, and will never be more powerful than God. I used the metaphor about Satan being that powerful to show how it is impossible for him to steal our salvation. We are either saved or we are not. I am saved because I was the most sincere that I have ever been when I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour.

I hope this this explains my statement a little better.

Sorry, I didn't see anyone asking that question. We agree that God is in control and NO ONE can take our salvation. Seems the difference is in the "keeping" of one's salvation. 1 john 2:3-6
3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

[mram10us]

James 5:19
19Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save [l]a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Trying to post the verse without my 2 cents. I don't want to sway someone wrongly if I am reading or understanding it wrongly.

[1Holeshot]

You are about as solid as they come and I appreciate your counsel.