Hole shot question

[motobuffy]

Yes, some additional weight on the front will help with the break over, but too much and it will scrub a little speed. You never know, the Trophy may make a good difference. I have had great result running Trophys and carrying big loads in the past. Sorry, I thought you were another guy that posted on another site with this 2+2 rig.

Not my boat, but it is very close to, if not, an exact duplicate. The weather here has been miserable and I'm not in a big hurry to get on the lake in this heat. When it cools off, I'll try the following in this order

1 Get a good baseline with the current setup
2 Do more testing with variable engine heights
3 Move the trolling batteries to the front of the port rear compartment
4 Start playing with PVS plugs in the bravo.
5 Try the trophy.
6 Retry the Quad IV.

I'm trying to sequence the tests in the simplest and quickest first. If they don't result in improvement, then its back to the drawing board. If I'm missing anything, please post your suggestions.

[PSM207]

Motobuffy - I'm still curious how many batteries you're carrying and exactly where they are located.

[motobuffy]

Motobuffy - I'm still curious how many batteries you're carrying and exactly where they are located.

{1} 27 series Blue top AGM cranker, starboard side of rear center compartment, under the oil tank
{1} 125 amp Impulse lithium house battery, port side of center rear compartment.
{2} 27 series AC Delco deep cycle trolling batteries, all the way back in the port side rear compartment.

[PSM207]

Motobuffy - Thanks for providing the battery info. I assume this is how it was setup when you purchased the boat?

[AllyFishing]

4 one inch holes???/ And only two 7/8" holes?? 6 holes total???? I've never heard of Robbie ever doing that. My 2+2 was an 08 with a 250XS 1.75 gears. Robbie built me a 30P Bravo with 8 standard PVS holes. I blocked off the 4 holes closest to the gearcase and the others open. But don't forget this is with 1.75 gears.

Do you have any gear up front at all?? Are you a die hard fisherman with lots of tackle? Give us some info on what you have in the boat.

Here's a scenario.......YOu're in gear idling, stomp the peddle and the boat immediately starts forward with the engine revving like crazy and bow going up with RPM's over 5 grand. It keeps revving till the bow finally starts down and the prop grabs and you take off??? And this takes some time cuz the engine is revving like crazy til it finally gets enough "grab" to finally get going?? Is this it???

If so then you need to start plugging up some holes with large hole PVS plugs first. but then again....you've got some 1" holes and 7/8" holes?? I don't know what the PVS plugs are.

Is this boat new to you or have you had it all the time and your just having this issue now??

[motobuffy]

4 one inch holes???/ And only two 7/8" holes?? 6 holes total???? I've never heard of Robbie ever doing that. My 2+2 was an 08 with a 250XS 1.75 gears. Robbie built me a 30P Bravo with 8 standard PVS holes. I blocked off the 4 holes closest to the gearcase and the others open. But don't forget this is with 1.75 gears.

Do you have any gear up front at all?? Are you a die hard fisherman with lots of tackle? Give us some info on what you have in the boat.

Here's a scenario.......YOu're in gear idling, stomp the peddle and the boat immediately starts forward with the engine revving like crazy and bow going up with RPM's over 5 grand. It keeps revving till the bow finally starts down and the prop grabs and you take off??? And this takes some time cuz the engine is revving like crazy til it finally gets enough "grab" to finally get going?? Is this it???

If so then you need to start plugging up some holes with large hole PVS plugs first. but then again....you've got some 1" holes and 7/8" holes?? I don't know what the PVS plugs are.

Is this boat new to you or have you had it all the time and your just having this issue now??

This boat was purchased 3 years ago from a dealer in Phoenix, Az. Don't ask why a sane person would drive from VA to AZ to buy a boat sight unseen. No known info prior to then. Prop was drilled with the six holes prior to the purchase, not by Robbie. All holes were open at purchase. To be clear, I haven't looked closely at other Bravos or Quad IVs to know if or how they are different from stock. Robbie's task was to repair and blueprint the Bravo to be appropriate for an XB21. His work did make for an improvement in the holeshot, as did the tuneup.
As for weight, in addition to the batteries and units on the bow, there is about 60 lbs of tackle and rods in front of the consoles, AT and pole on bow, lunch with minimal ice in cooler, folding fishing chairs front and back deck, 2 guys @ 180lbs each, and 20lbs of tackle in the cockpit floor {my buddy's stuff}.
Holeshot has been poor since day 1. I didn't worry about it until my neighbor took me out in his new 521 Ranger. We can't let a Ranger embarrass an Allison.

[Hammmerhead]

This boat was purchased 3 years ago from a dealer in Phoenix, Az. Don't ask why a sane person would drive from VA to AZ to buy a boat sight unseen. No known info prior to then. Prop was drilled with the six holes prior to the purchase, not by Robbie. All holes were open at purchase. To be clear, I haven't looked closely at other Bravos or Quad IVs to know if or how they are different from stock. Robbie's task was to repair and blueprint the Bravo to be appropriate for an XB21. His work did make for an improvement in the holeshot, as did the tuneup.
As for weight, in addition to the batteries and units on the bow, there is about 60 lbs of tackle and rods in front of the consoles, AT and pole on bow, lunch with minimal ice in cooler, folding fishing chairs front and back deck, 2 guys @ 180lbs each, and 20lbs of tackle in the cockpit floor {my buddy's stuff}.
Holeshot has been poor since day 1. I didn't worry about it until my neighbor took me out in his new 521 Ranger. We can't let a Ranger embarrass an Allison.

I failed to mention I have wedges. Also, my Bravo is one of the older versions with no vent holes and a big hub. But, I have a Hydromotive 15 X 26, probably just like yours and it has 8 holes in it and Im not sure if the holeshot is as good on it as the 28 Bravo I have. Having said that, the Bravo runs pretty short on the pitch stamped on it.

Your battery setup def puts a lot of weight in the rear. I would at least try and get those troller batteries up in front of console or get you a budget single or dual Lithium setup for the troller to help equalize the weight. I converted from 2, 31 series Trojan AGM's up front for my troller to 2, 100ah lithium's and it cut about 95lbs out of front nose weight. Our loads weights are very similar from what you have posted other than that.

[AllyFishing]

As for the batteries.......my 2008 2+2, bought new in 2009 from C&O Marine, White Bluff, TN....yes I drove from Pa to white Bluff for mine, had the heavy AGM cranking under the oil tank in the bilge, the two 31 group TM batteries were stuffed all the way back in the sponson port side. I needed more weight port when running solo so I moved the AGM cranking to the rear port compartment up against the wall behind the passenger seat. But I didn't need it there for hole shot. Just balanced better running solo.

Are you able to plug those 2 smaller holes and start there?

I loaded all my rods in the center compartment up front. All other tackle was up front in the two port and starboard compartments. I would move those contents left or right based on my balance needs.

Your skid planer, if stock to that year, should extend from the hull approx 4 1/2". I swapped my stock one out when Allison fame out with the next shorter version and I noticed a significant impact to hole shot.

[PSM207]

Plug the 7/8' holes, drop the JP and trim all the way down. When she breaks over, start trimming up then raise JP.

^^^ This what is suggest trying first. ^^^

[motobuffy]

Finally got to the lake today. I have plugged the two smaller holes on the bravo. Dropped the prop height to 1.5 below. Trim, of course, is all the way under. Results are as follows ( using the one thousand one, one thousand two, etc method of timing ).
Starting with the boat in gear, at point zero, I floor the gas.

At 1001, the bow is rising and rpms are approaching 3000.

At 1002, the bow is high and rpms are around 3500, approaching its max of 3700.

At 1002.5, the bow starts to drop, but is still higher than I would like.

At 1003, the bow is dropping fast.

At 1003.5, the boat is accelerating and I'm scrambling to jack up and trim.

This is a big improvement time wise, but I'm hoping for less bow rise. Suggestions, or are XB21s prone to higher than normal bow rise? My last 3 boats, XB2003, XTB21, and Stratos 201 all had less bow rise. I can go lower on the jackplate, but will have to rehang the motor first.

Thanks all for your interest and suggestions.

[AllyFishing]

That sounds about right. I wouldn't go lower on the engine. Try raising the engine now a little bit at a time and see if that improves the bow rise. Sometimes when the engine is too low it makes it dig deeper. Any more over-revving?

[motobuffy]

No noticeable difference between starting at 1 inch below or 1.5 inches below as far as bow rise, bur slower to plane at 1 inch. A couple things I failed to mention are the gas tank is full, livewell is empty ( I rarely put any water in the live well), and no passenger during the latest test. Those three things would shift the balance point backwards compared to most tournament loads. As suggested earlier, I may try sliding the trolling motor batteries forward the next time I'm out, as well as adding a passenger. Anyone use a more extreme set of wedges than the Allison supplied ones?

[Hammmerhead]

No noticeable difference between starting at 1 inch below or 1.5 inches below as far as bow rise, bur slower to plane at 1 inch. A couple things I failed to mention are the gas tank is full, livewell is empty ( I rarely put any water in the live well), and no passenger during the latest test. Those three things would shift the balance point backwards compared to most tournament loads. As suggested earlier, I may try sliding the trolling motor batteries forward the next time I'm out, as well as adding a passenger. Anyone use a more extreme set of wedges than the Allison supplied ones?

Keep in mind, you have a 225 with a 1.62 gear. That "worked" Bravo you have may actually be slightly more pitch than a 26, even though stock Bravo's usually run a tad short on their stamped pitch. If you're not even breaking over 4K RPM's coming out of the hole giving it all it has, it sure sounds like you're over propped.

You also might pull your plugs and make sure you don't have a wet one or a dead coil.

Also, a 1.62 Sporty is very, very close to the equivalent of adding 1 inch of pitch comparing to a modern 1.75 geared Sporty and 2 inches of pitch comparing to the old tried and true 1.87 geared Sporty. If your prop has had more rake, cup or pitch added, it could be the straw that's breaking the camels back. 2 strokes dont have the low end the modern 4 strokes have in most cases and a 1.62 geared 225 might be a stretch with a full tank and a 26 as far as a strong holeshot goes. I would try and find another stock prop int he 25-26 pitch range just get to another baseline to back up your current issue.

[AllyFishing]

I agree ^^^^

[droptine]

Add a hydrofoil...

[motobuffy]

Keep in mind, you have a 225 with a 1.62 gear. That "worked" Bravo you have may actually be slightly more pitch than a 26, even though stock Bravo's usually run a tad short on their stamped pitch. If you're not even breaking over 4K RPM's coming out of the hole giving it all it has, it sure sounds like you're over propped.

You also might pull your plugs and make sure you don't have a wet one or a dead coil.

Also, a 1.62 Sporty is very, very close to the equivalent of adding 1 inch of pitch comparing to a modern 1.75 geared Sporty and 2 inches of pitch comparing to the old tried and true 1.87 geared Sporty. If your prop has had more rake, cup or pitch added, it could be the straw that's breaking the camels back. 2 strokes dont have the low end the modern 4 strokes have in most cases and a 1.62 geared 225 might be a stretch with a full tank and a 26 as far as a strong holeshot goes. I would try and find another stock prop int he 25-26 pitch range just get to another baseline to back up your current issue.

Not disagreeing at all, but the 225 Sport XS manual indicates it only was offered with the 1.62. In many past posts concerning LU ratios for 300s vs 250s, I noticed the 250s utilized the 1.62 better than the 300s. I assumed that was because the 250s had more initial torque than the 300s. I further extrapolated that the 225 would have more low end torque than the 250, thus the single offering from the factory. However, the motor has a 6300 rpm max rating, which makes me think that it has been tuned such that it hasn't the low end torque that a standard 225 would have. Just to make sure everyone knows, this is a 3.0 engine. After all this rambling, the next option to try is a 26 trophy with a cut down barrel that Robbie did for my XTB.

[motobuffy]

Add a hydrofoil...

Been thinking about this. The LU has been drilled for one, but it was removed prior to my purchase. I will measure the spacing and post it. Perhaps that might tell me what was on there previously. I'm clueless about foils. Do they come predrilled? Does it depend on the manufacturer? Which one(s) would be best for my application?

[bake]

Buy a foil from Allison. That’s a big boat with a small motor and some tall gearing ,it needs all the help it can get .I have pretty much the same set up .mine comes out of the fairly well .I use a 27 pitch prop ,I have several they all work about the same. Bravo,Hydromotive,pro max. I always leave my jack plate up . Livewell empty when I’m not carrying fish. Also as the other poster suggested, Check your plugs those motors are known to have bad coils. I think the foil will cure the issue you are describing. Just know it’s never going to jump on plane with a 26-27 prop.

[droptine]

Been thinking about this. The LU has been drilled for one, but it was removed prior to my purchase. I will measure the spacing and post it. Perhaps that might tell me what was on there previously. I'm clueless about foils. Do they come predrilled? Does it depend on the manufacturer? Which one(s) would be best for my application?

Either an Allison foil or CB Marine foil. The uglier the foil the better they work. I seen one of those newer stingray foils on an Allison one time. Super-flat holeshot. You will notice a difference in bow rise when you add a foil. CB Marine also has an installation video on their website.