Romans 9 (Thoughts on predestination or election)

[Chisco]

After reading Romans 9….what are your thoughts on predestination/election?

[1Holeshot]

This is a tough one, but here are my thoughts.

To prepare for Romans 9, I go back to Romans 8: 29 & 30. These two verses helped me understand predestination. Although we have free will, God knows what our choices will be.

Going into chapter 9 Israel rejects Christ as the Messiah ( Christ) and the grace he offers) instead choosing the law. In verse 30 we see that the Gentiles ( us) obtained righteousness by faith believing in Jesus while Israel chose to live by the law.

Obviously This is a Cliffs Notes observation but hopefully I am on the right track.

[digthemup]

There is a lot of concepts in Romans 9 that are brought up by Paul, which is of no surprise judging by the complexity of his epistles.
One could preclude predestination in the paragraph 11-13 in relation as it was pointed out Romans 8: 29-30, yet at the same time, we are give a coup d'œil of Christ predestined genealogy.

In this chapter, Paul introduces the grafting of the gentiles onto the vine of salvation, and the purpose of God's perceived intention by Paul why such was accomplished in this paragraph

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
33 as it is written,

Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone
and rock of offense:
and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

BTW, the passages which I have underlined also may shade a light into Ephesians 33.

[mram10us]

Definitions are very important here(captain obvious here). Calvanists look at election/predestination as God choosing some for eternal life and others for eternal damnation, regardless of your will. I think the Bible disagrees with that definition throughout scripture. Pharaoh is a great example. God didn't harden his heart until after pharaoh hardened his own heart enslaving the israelites and ignoring God's warnings.

[Chisco]

Not disagreeing with you Mram. Like 1Holeshot said above, this is a hard concept for me to understand. What are your thoughts on Romans 9:17-18, “17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.“

[digthemup]

Calvanists look at election/predestination as God choosing some for eternal life and others for eternal damnation, regardless of your will. I think the Bible disagrees with that definition throughout scripture. Pharaoh is a great example. God didn't harden his heart until after pharaoh hardened his own heart enslaving the Israelites and ignoring God's warnings.

That is the issue I have with religious opinion, which attempt to override God's word, and it is not only limited to those using Christian Judeo believes, since Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, and I am sure others use predestination.

Did God harden pharaoh's heart or the actions God took against him for not obeying? for it is against God's spiritual actions in tempting men to do evil, but only to test men.

[bassfishinglawyer]

Too many other versus about God wanting all men to come to repentance to hang your hat on one.

Here's a question I've always pondered though - suppose God did harden Pharaoh's heart (i.e. Pharaoh had nothing to do with it), does that mean God couldn't still choose to save him (so it ended up okay for Pharaoh)?

[digthemup]

Too many other versus about God wanting all men to come to repentance to hang your hat on one.

Here's a question I've always pondered though - suppose God did harden Pharaoh's heart (i.e. Pharaoh had nothing to do with it), does that mean God couldn't still choose to save him (so it ended up okay for Pharaoh)?

You have pondered a very interesting question, as to which God has provided you with a simple reply, that being 'all things are possible to God', yet, we need to accept the the past for that which it is because the events of the entire incident hold a very great lesson for us to learn from.

BTW, I pray that those on social media and the news, who are attempting to manipulate our past were intelligent enough to possibly see the valuable lessons in our past leaving the dang things alone.

[mram10us]

Not disagreeing with you Mram. Like 1Holeshot said above, this is a hard concept for me to understand. What are your thoughts on Romans 9:17-18, “17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.“

Disagree when I'm wrong, my brother! :) Those verses definitely show God put Pharaoh there for His glory. Exodus shows Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God hardened his heart. Exodus 9 shows how Pharaoh had free will as God was using him. After moses went to pharaoh and gave him God's message, the hail hit and killed unbelieving people and cattle. Then, pharaoh repented saying he sinned. Moses replied that pharaoh didn't fesr the Lord.... hail stops... Pharaoh hardens his own heart again. Great passage showing Pharaoh being used by God for God's glory, BUT choosing to harden his own heart.

[mram10us]

That is the issue I have with religious opinion, which attempt to override God's word, and it is not only limited to those using Christian Judeo believes, since Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, and I am sure others use predestination.

Did God harden pharaoh's heart or the actions God took against him for not obeying? for it is against God's spiritual actions in tempting men to do evil, but only to test men.

Preach! :) james 1:13-14
13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

[mram10us]

​

Not disagreeing with you Mram. Like 1Holeshot said above, this is a hard concept for me to understand. What are your thoughts on Romans 9:17-18, “17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.“

Here is the full scripture from exodus 9 that Paul referenced
exodus 9:13Then the Lord said to Moses, “Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me, 14for at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth. 15Now if I had stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, then you would have been cut off from the earth. 16But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. 17As yet you exalt yourself against My people in that you will not let them go. 18Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now. 19Therefore send now and gather your livestock and all that you have in the field, for the hail shall come down on every man and every animal which is found in the field and is not brought home; and they shall die.” ’ ”

sorry for the long cut and paste, but it seems to have more context and God said it, not me :)

[mram10us]

Too many other versus about God wanting all men to come to repentance to hang your hat on one.

Here's a question I've always pondered though - suppose God did harden Pharaoh's heart (i.e. Pharaoh had nothing to do with it), does that mean God couldn't still choose to save him (so it ended up okay for Pharaoh)?

Good question and the bible is clear that God hardened pharaoh's heart at times and other times, pharaoh hardened his own. Reading pharaoh's response to each plague is pretty interesting. It seems to me that God can harden people's hearts at times, YET not to hinder salvation for them.
2 peter 3:9 9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Ezekiel 33:11 As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

[digthemup]

mram

It seems to me that God can harden people's hearts at times, YET not to hinder salvation for them.

I do understand that this is your opinion, hence I respect it as such, however, if God did tempt us to sin, He would be acting contrary to His holy nature, against His desire for us to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and against all other commandments in Scripture that tell us to avoid sin and flee temptation.

Further, it is clear in James 1:13 'Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man.' and in the Lord's prayer 'Father keep us from the hour of temptation and deliver us from the evil one'

[mram10us]

mram

It seems to me that God can harden people's hearts at times, YET not to hinder salvation for them.

I do understand that this is your opinion, hence I respect it as such, however, if God did tempt us to sin, He would be acting contrary to His holy nature, against His desire for us to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and against all other commandments in Scripture that tell us to avoid sin and flee temptation.

Further, it is clear in James 1:13 'Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man.' and in the Lord's prayer 'Father keep us from the hour of temptation and deliver us from the evil one'

Since i posted the same verse above, I agree God doesn't tempt us :) It is clear in the Bible that He does harden some people's hearts. What point are you making here?

[digthemup]

Since i posted the same verse above, I agree God doesn't tempt us :) It is clear in the Bible that He does harden some people's hearts. What point are you making here?

How do you perceive hardening someone's heart?

[mram10us]

​

How do you perceive hardening someone's heart?

exodus 9:12
12But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

This is an example. I don't understand all it entailed, but I know the Bible says a few times that God hardened pharaoh's heart.

exodus 4:21 explains it better than i can.
And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

[digthemup]

Image this, out of all the wonders that God did which harden pharaoh, there was only one thing that God did at the end which convinced him to change his ways.
Did that soften his heart in any way? he became so bitter still thinking that he was god controlling his destiny, bringing him to his final demise.

God will test us, and God created evil so to test our resolute in time when we wonder away from that which we know that it is the righteous thing to do.
God trusted Job so much, that He allowed Satan to test him, because God knew that heart of Job would not be hardened regardless of the hardship and suffering brought about by the calamities orchestrated by the evil one.
At times, in my opinion, punctuation, translation, and some liberties taken within conversions can create challenges in clarity of of understanding allowing for misperception.

[mram10us]

Image this, out of all the wonders that God did which harden pharaoh, there was only one thing that God did at the end which convinced him to change his ways.
Did that soften his heart in any way? he became so bitter still thinking that he was god controlling his destiny, bringing him to his final demise.

God will test us, and God created evil so to test our resolute in time when we wonder away from that which we know that it is the righteous thing to do.
God trusted Job so much, that He allowed Satan to test him, because God knew that heart of Job would not be hardened regardless of the hardship and suffering brought about by the calamities orchestrated by the evil one.
At times, in my opinion, punctuation, translation, and some liberties taken within conversions can create challenges in clarity of of understanding allowing for misperception.

I am confused by your replies. Are you saying God didn't harden pharaoh's heart? It seems you were debating me about something but i have no idea what since I'm only quoting scripture. Please clarify. Thanks

[digthemup]

I am confused by your replies. Are you saying God didn't harden pharaoh's heart? It seems you were debating me about something but i have no idea what since I'm only quoting scripture. Please clarify. Thanks

When you read the entire chapter, it is clear that pharaoh's heart was harden long before God unleashed everything on him, since he saw himself as a god. He showed that against Moses by taking him at the edge of the desert and basically leaving him to die, mostly due to jealousy and self pride. Further, even after God sending hell on earth upon Egypt, even to the point of giving him an option of saving his own son, he stayed the course of pride and self centered believe that he is a god, very similar to what Putin is doing at the very present by killing his own people and innocent Ukrainians.
Taking all this into context, did God literally harden pharaoh's heart? or pride, boasting, and self centeredness with no desire to change under any circumstances was what God can clearly see in him?

BTW, I am not trying to debate you, but just sharing what I perceive from the entirety of the chapters relating to pharaoh's life, which seem to be inline with my opinion. Now, it in your opinion, you believe that God intentionally lead him to sin, my suggestions are in the previous postings for you to consider.

[mram10us]

When you read the entire chapter, it is clear that pharaoh's heart was harden long before God unleashed everything on him, since he saw himself as a god. He showed that against Moses by taking him at the edge of the desert and basically leaving him to die, mostly due to jealousy and self pride. Further, even after God sending hell on earth upon Egypt, even to the point of giving him an option of saving his own son, he stayed the course of pride and self centered believe that he is a god, very similar to what Putin is doing at the very present by killing his own people and innocent Ukrainians.
Taking all this into context, did God literally harden pharaoh's heart? or pride, boasting, and self centeredness with no desire to change under any circumstances was what God can clearly see in him?

BTW, I am not trying to debate you, but just sharing what I perceive from the entirety of the chapters relating to pharaoh's life, which seem to be inline with my opinion. Now, it in your opinion, you believe that God intentionally lead him to sin, my suggestions are in the previous postings for you to consider.

It's not my opinion, dig. I'm quoting the Bible showing God hardened pharaoh's heart. That's all. No other opinion from me :) Exodus is clear God hardened his heart. Not arguing pharaoh hardened his own heart at times, cause the Bible says that. We'll have to trust God did it for His glory, like exodus said